Isaac Del Toro thread

[TourOfSardinia]

Isaac is on the wrong team
We need him to challenge Pog
not support him.
I wish

 

[canina82]

Isaac is on the wrong team
We need him to challenge Pog
not support him.
I wish

I also think he should be in another team but he won't challenge Pogacar no matter what.

 

[fenns]

He's just won a race due to being on UAE - at the moment it's a benefit to him.

 

[P4rthen0n]

He's just won a race due to being on UAE - at the moment it's a benefit to him.

You are absolutely right.

UAE has been a tremendous net positive for Del Toro, so far.
He still has a shot at a major GT in UAE, if Pogacar isn't racing, just like João Almeida.
Other than that, they have to work for Pogacar.

The only problem is if Pogacar decides he wants to win Giro + Tour + Vuelta next year.

 

[topcat]

Del Toro should go to Visma, the Visma mechanic helped him win Stage 2, so there's already a relationship.

 

[fenns]

Pog is so far ahead already no further need for Torito to help him - Pog can assist him to second or third

 

[Unchained]

Two days ago on French television Thomas Voeckler asked a mean question to Del Toro. Quoted freely from memory:

Voeckler: "How can you ever win the Tour yourself if you're in the same team as Pogacar?"
Del Toro: "That's a very complicated question. I'm very happy and grateful to be in this team."

In my opinion that is a really stupid question and is completely out of context. Del Toro is in his 3rd year, 30 professional wins, and a win in 2 different grand tours at 22_years old. Tommy Voeckler has 44 wins at 47 long retired..Del Toro is riding with ,learning from, sharing friendship and experience with possibly the bike racer in history. Voeckler can try and frame a question, try and imply that Del Toro should be disappointed, or something is missing.. Everything is absolutely perfect, including his 27 year old team leader sharing when he can.. Del Toro winning a stage is incredible..

 

[Unchained]

Isaac is on the wrong team
We need him to challenge Pog
not support him.
I wish

People must not watch or read what Del Toro thinks.. He couldn't be happier

 

[elguapo]

Del Toro should be allowed to initiate his own attacks or join a breakaway during transition stages. I'm sure Pogi could serve as a rear guard. He needs to dislodged Vingo at No. 2. He needs time bonuses as Vingegaard could still be a better time trialist than him.

 

[AlfaLum]

What is very good for Del Toro is that after his Solaison and Tourmalet performances we can now be sure that he has what it takes to win a GT.

The longer mountain efforts cannot be mentioned as a possible weakness anymore after these performances which is a good thing after Finestre last year made it more uncertain.

Also in terms of durability Del Toro seems to be making steps forward allthough this is something he still has to prove. Hopefully in the WC and Lombardia later this year.

The future for Del Toro is looking bright and Seixas will have a tough contender in him when Pogacar and Vingegaard retire. 🙂

 

[canina82]

What is very good for Del Toro is that after his Solaison and Tourmalet performances we can now be sure that he has what it takes to win a GT.

The longer mountain efforts cannot be mentioned as a possible weakness anymore after these performances which is a good thing after Finestre last year made it more uncertain.

Also in terms of durability Del Toro seems to be making steps forward allthough this is something he still has to prove. Hopefully in the WC and Lombardia later this year.

The future for Del Toro is looking bright and Seixas will have a tough contender in him when Pogacar and Vingegaard retire. 🙂

Incredible how his detractors disappeared since the Dauphiné. He is looking a top5 climber in the world (and maybe top3) right now. I'm not even talking about his ability on hilly and MM stages where he is clearly the third best behind Vingegaard and Pogacar.

 

[mikks]

Incredible how his detractors disappeared since the Dauphiné. He is looking a top5 climber in the world (and maybe top3) right now. I'm not even talking about his ability on hilly and MM stages where he is clearly the third best behind Vingegaard and Pogacar.

But there were also several people who started to overhype Del Toro, saying that he is massively better than Lipo and that Vingegaard should feel threatened, etc. Yesterday showed that he is not massively better than Lipo or the others. The big picture is still the same: Pogi is in a league of his own, Vingegaard is still the second-best climber and then comes a group of riders who are more or less on the same level. Del Toro is one of them.

 

[canina82]

But there were also several people who started to overhype Del Toro, saying that he is massively better than Lipo and that Vingegaard should feel threatened, etc. Yesterday showed that he is not massively better than Lipo or the others. The big picture is still the same: Pogi is in a league of his own, Vingegaard is still the second-best climber and then comes a group of riders who are more or less on the same level. Del Toro is one of them.

Can you name who was the person to put him in Vingegaard's level (or close too)? Tbh, I never found a post here saying that but I can be wrong.
But there were many peoplr who said he wasn't a real climber.

 

[vappa]

Isaac is on the wrong team
We need him to challenge Pog
not support him.
I wish

I disagree. He was gifted a stage because he's in UAE. They will try to get him on a podium now that the Tour is pretty much over, even with the help of Pogacar if necessary. He couldn't beat Pogacar regardless what team he was on, monuments, WC, or any stage race

 

[elguapo]

Del Toro time-trialing is still a suspect. Results of his ITT in UAE, Basque Country and Tirreno were just above average. Let's see his ITT results in stage 16 if it is already on higher level.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

I disagree. He was gifted a stage because he's in UAE. They will try to get him on a podium now that the Tour is pretty much over, even with the help of Pogacar if necessary. He couldn't beat Pogacar regardless what team he was on, monuments, WC, or any stage race

I'm not talking about Isaac's contingent capabilities (you're probably right)
I'm talking my fantasy of his emulation of Alberto:
Alberto matured in greatness when he challenged comeback Lance.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Del Toro should go to Visma, the Visma mechanic helped him win Stage 2, so there's already a relationship.

Visma guys are brilliant strategists: Pauline riding with Pog on one bike, Torito helped by their car. It takes time but it will pay off eventually and Pogi will end up in pubs with Jan Ullrich.

 

[Extinction]

But there were also several people who started to overhype Del Toro, saying that he is massively better than Lipo and that Vingegaard should feel threatened, etc. Yesterday showed that he is not massively better than Lipo or the others. The big picture is still the same: Pogi is in a league of his own, Vingegaard is still the second-best climber and then comes a group of riders who are more or less on the same level. Del Toro is one of them.

But del Toro pulled "too fast" and if he had dialed it down a notch we probably would have seen three go over the Tourmalet together and he would have arrived with Vingegaard. This is where race intelligence could have been helpfull. Prudence is the highest wisdom. He will learn. Evidently he wanted to show Pogacar how strong he is, but it worked against him.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

But there were also several people who started to overhype Del Toro, saying that he is massively better than Lipo and that Vingegaard should feel threatened, etc. Yesterday showed that he is not massively better than Lipo or the others. The big picture is still the same: Pogi is in a league of his own, Vingegaard is still the second-best climber and then comes a group of riders who are more or less on the same level. Del Toro is one of them.

Del Toro might not be better than Lipowitz at climbing, although I suspect he is slightly better. However, he seems to be better at everything else. If you take out Pogacar and Vingegaard, the next gen field currently is more clustered like in the past, so being punchy and good across terrains is critical. Think about Roglic; great climber but not worlds better than his rivals in his wins.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

He's just won a race due to being on UAE - at the moment it's a benefit to him.

You are absolutely right.

UAE has been a tremendous net positive for Del Toro, so far.
He still has a shot at a major GT in UAE, if Pogacar isn't racing, just like João Almeida.
Other than that, they have to work for Pogacar.

The only problem is if Pogacar decides he wants to win Giro + Tour + Vuelta next year.

It's not a benefit to the fans, though. Personally, I don't think there is a world in which he takes Pogacar head on this year or next year or maybe ever, if Pogacar doesn't decline before he retires. BUT the top 5 riders should all be on different teams! Period. I'd rather see Del Toro figuring out how to ride as a leader consistently, taking his lumps honestly, getting big wins where he's able, and developing as his own character vs. as a wingman to the best cyclist of all time.

 

[canina82]

Del Toro is absolutely tailormade for the Vuelta. He will win a GT if he is smart enough in his decision. This is something I can't say about Lipo for example.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Any word as to whether Del Toro is going to ride the Vuelta? Seems like a natural move unless he digs super deep for 2/3 in this Tour and has nothing left.

 

[mikks]

Del Toro might not be better than Lipowitz at climbing, although I suspect he is slightly better. However, he seems to be better at everything else. If you take out Pogacar and Vingegaard, the next gen field currently is more clustered like in the past, so being punchy and good across terrains is critical. Think about Roglic; great climber but not worlds better than his rivals in his wins.

I dont dispute that. I think it was Peyresourde who once said that debates about climbers often sound like there are only 2.5 climbers in the world. Pog and Vingegaard are established and proven. Then there is this "third guy" who isn't established and changes constantly. After the Dauphine it is Del Toro, after LBL its Seixas, after losing two kilos it is Remco (at least according to some of his fans), and so on. But the reality is exactly as you say: there is a cluster of riders right now between whom the differences are not massive.
This wont last forever, though. Just a little more time and the picture will become much clearer a d cluster will be replaced by a hierarchy.

 

[canina82]

I dont dispute that. I think it was Peyresourde who once said that debates about climbers often sound like there are only 2.5 climbers in the world. Pog and Vingegaard are established and proven. Then there is this "third guy" who isn't established and changes constantly. After the Dauphine it is Del Toro, after LBL its Seixas, after losing two kilos it is Remco (at least according to some of his fans), and so on. But the reality is exactly as you say: there is a cluster of riders right now between whom the differences are not massive.
This wont last forever, though. Just a little more time and the picture will become much clearer a d cluster will be replaced by a hierarchy.

I believe yesterday was such an attritional day that most GC riders were on their knees in the last 5 km. This is why Vingegaard and especially Pog opened such a big gap in a short distance (5 km). It's also a fact Tourmalet wasn't a MTF so riders didn't try to go all out.
On Solaison, we will have a better picture. I was very impressed with Torito for example.

 

[red_flanders]

Del Toro is absolutely tailormade for the Vuelta. He will win a GT if he is smart enough in his decision. This is something I can't say about Lipo for example.

Would love to see him ride it this year. Quite a weak field so far, he'd walk to a win.