"It's clear that riders have learned to dope within the passport," Ashen

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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BigBoat said:
Yeah, there;s like 50 guys+.
I have to ask, where do you get that figure from?
You obviously know quite a bit on the doping scenario and the practices used.

Do you feel - in your opinion- that things are getting better?

Where I am asking this from is that I was disappointed with the biological passport - out of 800+ rider's just 5 set off the alarms!
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
I have to ask, where do you get that figure from?
You obviously know quite a bit on the doping scenario and the practices used.

Do you feel - in your opinion- that things are getting better?

Where I am asking this from is that I was disappointed with the biological passport - out of 800+ rider's just 5 set off the alarms!
To me its about 50 on the top. Most of the 840 are "doped" with mild recovery gear...But there's not many that can jack their crits way up with blood doping. HGH, or IGF-1 use is like candy still we must assume.

Where did I get the figure from...Larsson finished in 11th place in the opening TT. He can hold 6.2 watts per kilo for an hour. Upper range clean is about 5.6 or so at that weight of his. Not many pros can even get 5.2 clean. You must assume 50th place has above 5.6 watts per kilo. I'd put money anything above 50th in that TT is a jacked crit.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
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BigBoat said:
To me its about 50 on the top. Most of the 840 are "doped" with mild recovery gear...But there's not many that can jack their crits way up with blood doping. HGH, or IGF-1 use is like candy still we must assume.

Where did I get the figure from...Larsson finished in 11th place in the opening TT. He can hold 6.2 watts per kilo for an hour. Upper range clean is about 5.6 or so at that weight of his. Not many pros can even get 5.2 clean. You must assume 50th place has above 5.6 watts per kilo. I'd put money anything above 50th in that TT is a jacked crit.
Thanks for the reply!
Yes - I am assuming many are using 'mild recovery gear" and that it isn't all vitimans. I am interested in the number that are still blood doping and more importantly how and why they are managing to avoid the bio-passport.

I still dont know enough about wattage - so I will make that my next project!
 
Mar 13, 2009
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I would love for Ashenden to elaborate on these so called techniques.

Paragraph that caught my eye was this one:

"Because of the necessary secrecy around drug testing, the official spoke on condition of anonymity. He believes that lesser-paid riders can no longer afford doping programs that are sophisticated enough to evade the passport regime and so are spilling the beans on those they suspect still can."

Is this our hope to crush the Omerta? Riders finally spilling beans on their peers. Highly unlikely IMO.
 
unsheath said:
I would love for Ashenden to elaborate on these so called techniques.

Paragraph that caught my eye was this one:

"Because of the necessary secrecy around drug testing, the official spoke on condition of anonymity. He believes that lesser-paid riders can no longer afford doping programs that are sophisticated enough to evade the passport regime and so are spilling the beans on those they suspect still can."

Is this our hope to crush the Omerta? Riders finally spilling beans on their peers. Highly unlikely IMO.
+1 on that. Kohl telling about Rasmussen looks more like the fallout from a typical police investigation. But riders calling the UCI and ratting on their team's star rider? I will believe it when I see it.
 
I dont know much about the details of the passport but lets say a blood 'marker' typically varies in a normal person by 1%. In order to have a good enough case to ban someone though, you have to cater for uncertainties, ie how relavant are these values to a tour rider, etc, The UCI could therefore decide that a variation of 5% is enough to ban someone. If this is true then a rider could dope giving variations of 3-4% knowing that, although these will arouse suspicion, they wont give a positive.

As far as ratting goes, a team could be worried that someone is going to test positive at some point. If they do then that could mean the end of the team if the sponsor pulls out with a tough job market making things difficult for the riders. However, if they are seen to be concerned about the doper and help the authorities then maybe it looks better for the team. Being viewed as good on ethics can also help you gain admission to races.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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unsheath said:
I would love for Ashenden to elaborate on these so called techniques.

Paragraph that caught my eye was this one:

"Because of the necessary secrecy around drug testing, the official spoke on condition of anonymity. He believes that lesser-paid riders can no longer afford doping programs that are sophisticated enough to evade the passport regime and so are spilling the beans on those they suspect still can."

Is this our hope to crush the Omerta? Riders finally spilling beans on their peers. Highly unlikely IMO.
For the moment, I doubt that assessment too. Cycling culture needs to change before people open up and 'betray' one another. At the moment, I still think it's caught up in a catch 22 situation.

Those who can afford it, are the ones with money, hence succesful. They are champions and winners, hence teams are vying for there services. They are the ones that will get the fattest contracts, the biggest share of the sponsor filled budget. The disparity in income will thus manintain their capacity to dope effectively.

Lesser riders will get the opposite end of the bargain, less money and hence less capacity to 'improve' their performances. On the other hand, since a team needs 1/2/3 succesful riders to generate sponsor income, they are IMO less likely to rat them out, because they make possible the conditions in which they, as a domestique, can perform the job of cycling, for a wage that is on a par/even better, than painting houses. The big stars, make the lesser stars shine and offer them an opportunity to do what they love to do. Ride bikes...
 
Jun 16, 2009
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exactly.

even the lowliest pro rider will only speak out if he knows his involvement in cycling is completely over.

The problem is that then they are dismissed as bitter fantasists who were never any good anyway.

What is needed is a brilliant amateur who really doesn't want to be a pro, but can be persuaded to join a pro team for one year to observe, record and participate in doping. A spy, basically. that would be fun.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
It also appears they are testing for HGH? From Gripper:

“There’s follow up testing and we’re using a range of different types of tests in the morning and in the evening. For example we’ll test riders for human growth hormone, homologous blood transfusion and CERA in the morning [there is no point doing this after the stage], and every rider had a biological passport test on Thursday in their hotels. Biological passport testing will also be conducted on several mornings during the race”
 
I question the efficacy of such tests. Not that they don't work. But that they work for a few hours after someone jacked on them, while they are effective as a PED for days. Don't know though, just guessing.

I doubt too what that article says. I'm guessing that what 's really going on is that doping is pushed further into secrecy, that's all, and that it is true that more poor riders can't afford do dope, and can't keep up.

Wiggins comment "Heard some news tonight thats going to shock the cycling world when it hits the press!" sounds like a little warm winded to me. May be something such as the ACTH or HGH tests catching a few name people. This wouldn't shock me at all, but I'm a jaded sob, and some people would find it shocking.

Anyone care to play the guessing game?
 

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