João Almeida - Bota Lume

[lenric]

movistar please no.
I'd say between Bora and UAE. Would put money on them.
Don't think AG2R would be a good fit. Trek seems like a retirement home.
INEOS would be a no-go for me.
Wouldn't rule out ISN depending on Froome's continuity.

 

[Panda Claws]

The money difference is huge though I think. Would've been hard to say no to even if the Giro went exactly as he had hoped

 

[ExperienPT]

I think it is decided and it would be BORA. In a Twitter during Giro the agent wrote : "BORA Bora bota lume João!" with translates to "Go Go..." but the use of the word Bora was not inoccent. Also... Yesterday João said it was already or almost decided and that he will announce it in a couple of months...

 

[Froome]

Like i said before, he might be better off at DQT since they will need to start building a GC/climbing team around Evenepoel anyway, and you always need more riders than you can put in your squad, considering form issues or injuries. So he can be 100% sure the team is going to invest in mountain/GC domestiques anyway. Other than Evenepoel, there is no other potential GT/GC guy at the team anyway. The teams that do not have at least one other GT/GC guy either suck at GC's or don't exist. So from that perspective, he isn't going to improve his situation by leaving DQT, imho.

But from what we've heard, is that they didn't even come close to a consensus regarding financials. Rumors have it that Evenepoel isn't on some huge contract either, because he values being at DQT over money. But it may prove a mistake for Almeida, we'll know in a year or two. Evenepoel can't ride 3 GT's per year, and there will be GC support coming anyway. Going to Bora, there is Buchmann, Kelderman, Schachmann, Kämna, Konrad & Grossschartner. And then there will be Uijtdebroeks coming in 2 to 3 years as well. It only needs one breakthrough GT from Kämna, and he's much worse off at Bora than DQT. I don't rate those riders higher than him, but plenty of 1 week races will go to the likes of Schachmann, Konrad, Kämna or Grossschartner regardless, or even Fabbro. All the talk about Remco being Belgian at a Belgian team, but he'd supposedly be leaving to ride for a German team, full of German/Austrian GC guys. I'm sure Bora would prefer parading results with Buchmann over Almeida.

But again, i get why he's leaving, but whether or not it will prove to be the better choice remains to be seen.


Because they have not been known to throw riders under the bus when it suits them, and are known for their tactical cunning. But i get what you mean (regarding ITT heavy GTs).

Bora has some leaders in the team, but joao almeida has the potential to be better than everyone of them. He already he is better than the majority of them. So the undisputed leadership will not be a problem.
On quick step or emirates it will be a problem because of remco and pogi. On that teams, joao will never target the tour france.

 

[ExperienPT]

Also If they are willing to pay the big bucks for him they are thinking on him for the leader role

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Bora has some leaders in the team, but joao almeida has the potential to be better than everyone of them. He already he is better than the majority of them. So the undisputed leadership will not be a problem.
On quick step or emirates it will be a problem because of remco and pogi. On that teams, joao will never target the tour france.

Riders have health issues / injuries all the time. Stating he would never be able to ride the TDF at those teams is silly. Routes don't suit every rider every year the same either, goals can change.
I would agree that he has the potential to be better than anybody at Bora... and Uijtdebroeks has the potential to be better than him as well. Potential isn't absolute, and Bora is a German team and Buchmann is a German. Again, all it takes is Kämna having a breakthrough GT result and Almeida is back to square one.

Also If they are willing to pay the big bucks for him they are thinking on him for the leader role

Thought by every fool ever signing at Ineos ;-)

 

[groogster]

I think it is decided and it would be BORA. In a Twitter during Giro the agent wrote : "BORA Bora bota lume João!" with translates to "Go Go..." but the use of the word Bora was not inoccent. Also... Yesterday João said it was already or almost decided and that he will announce it in a couple of months...

True, I also saw it in João Correia Twitter and probably meaning that the decision to sign with Bora was already made

 

[ExperienPT]

Riders have health issues / injuries all the time. Stating he would never be able to ride the TDF at those teams is silly. Routes don't suit every rider every year the same either, goals can change.
I would agree that he has the potential to be better than anybody at Bora... and Uijtdebroeks has the potential to be better than him as well. Potential isn't absolute, and Bora is a German team and Buchmann is a German. Again, all it takes is Kämna having a breakthrough GT result and Almeida is back to square one.


Thought by every fool ever signing at Ineos ;-)

Kamna is closer to a mental burnout than a GC breakthrough, Buchmann is good but Almeida is already as good climbing if not better (if he can keep up this level, or improve it) and much better TT. Uijtdebroeks can be "the next Merckx" or nothing...

Not saying it is a good move... But it can be

 

[Froome]

Kamna is closer to a mental burnout than a GC breakthrough, Buchmann is good but Almeida is already as good climbing if not better (if he can keep up this level, or improve it) and much better TT. Uijtdebroeks can be "the next Merckx" or nothing...

Not saying it is a good move... But it can be

We never know the future. Maybe almeida will improve and be better than pogi and remco, or maybe not. Maybe that uijtdebroeks will be the next merckx, or maybe not. One thing is sure, almeida will be in the fight with pogi and the others in the next years, he already proved that he can fight with some of the best with just 22 in the grand tours.

 

[ExperienPT]

I also think that DQS was his best option to get the most out of his potencial, and as I want him to be the best he can I'm a little sad (with this giro a little bit less though) that he is leaving DQS.

But if I was him I would get the money too, sport career is shot and uncertain, 4M and he has his life secured!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I also think that DQS was his best option to get the most out of his potencial, and as I want him to be the best he can I'm a little sad (with this giro a little bit less though) that he is leaving DQS.

But if I was him I would get the money too, sport career is shot and uncertain, 4M and he has his life secured!

Exactly how many millions does it take for a life without financial headaches? If you are the person who isn't content/settled with 2 million, then chances are 4 million won't be enough either. How much money does an average person make in a lifetime? Maybe 1 million (euro) in a lifetime (after taxes/social contributions)?

 

[dastott]

As a fan, I would love him at AG2R because he will always have leadership in the big stage races. But Movistar makes more sense. He has a higher ceiling than Mas or Lopez IMO.

 

[SafeBet]

Exactly how many millions does it take for a life without financial headaches? If you are the person who isn't content/settled with 2 million, then chances are 4 million won't be enough either. How much money does an average person make in a lifetime? Maybe 1 million (euro) in a lifetime (after taxes/social contributions)?

For one life without headaches you're probably right.
But you can't blame a person for possibly wanting to give lives without headaches to his parents, siblings, future sons and daughters, other relatives/friends.

Athletes careers can be cut short at any time for a number of reasons. You should take nothing for granted.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

For one life without headaches you're probably right.
But you can't blame a person for possibly wanting to give lives without headaches to his parents, siblings, future sons and daughters, other relatives/friends.

Athletes careers can be cut short at any time for a number of reasons. You should take nothing for granted.

A professional athlete is allowed to find a job after his career if it's really necessary. His/her life partner is allowed to look for a job as well. All his relatives are too. Most successful professionals get a lot of money from personal sponsorship deals on top of their wages. Sometimes worth more than their actual team contract.

With 1 or 2 million earned in a short timespan, you should have more than enough to provide those close to you with care. Unless all his relatives are gambling junkies with huge debts. Normal people, i mean those who don't earn more than 1M in their lifetime, also have to take care of their parents when they get old, they also have to send their kids to college, they also help out a sibling in need and also have a mortgage to pay.

As for careers getting cut short, how many careers haven't taken a nosedive due to bad careers decisions? Viviani left for a lucratieve contract... He hasn't won anything since and now has to move to a smalltime team.

It's simple, when you're earning more (double, triple...) than what a normal person earns in a lifetime, and you still want more and will base your career decisions on that, it's greed talking. That's my take on it. Unless huge chunks of it go to charity, an athlete like that doesn't need to come crying afterwards that he didn't get everything out of his career.

 

[BlueRoads]

I think money is always a question of comparison.
The guy who earns 20,000 a year thinks 100,000 a year is just huge, the 100,000 guy wants to earn the 200,000 of his boss and thinks the 20,000 guy is quite poor, while in some other part of the world for some other guy the idea of earning 20,000 a year is too much to even imagine. Messi earns an incredible amount of money, knows that's a lot, but probably thinks that he deserves it in comparison to the sheikh he just met, who just owns a club, doesn't risk his bones each week and has like x-times what he has. The star cyclist probably thinks Messi's money is insane in comparison to his 2-5 million, because his sport is way more dangerous and demanding.
It's not really about what you need, is it? How much do you need? For what?
(One big house in Munich and the million is "gone", well not gone, but one or two million aren't the kind of money where you need to start buying Pollocks and private jets to get rid of some of your money.)
((One really big economic crisis and a political change and "enough money for your children and children's children" is out of the window, anyway.))

I think we all have an idea what an "average" salary looks like, and what "enough" is, but as we start to be around a different kind of people, with a different kind of salary, that idea changes.

What I want to say: I don't think questions like these are about what you need to live a life without financial headaches. For most people it's about appreciation, and about getting what you think you deserve.

Personally, in a situation like Almeida's, I'd always rate the sportive perspective a lot, lot higher than the money, because, really, if you care about financial security, you should probably not even think about becoming a pro athlete, at least not without a prior education...
You become a pro athlete because you are chasing goals and maybe even some kind of fame.

(Then we probably have to take into consideration how young some of these guys are and that what a certain sum means or what you want to do later in your life is even harder to decide by then.)

 

[Panda Claws]

Not looking for a whole argument on this but I think it's pretty understandable to prefer having a couple millions more. If only because it allows you to live comfortably in the sense of financial independence etc. as well as in the sense of more luxurious.
It's reasonable to want to maximize luxury as well and you can call that greedy but imo that is mostly for lack of a better term. I think if we all put ourselves in Almeida's shoes at that age we could surely figure out what more we could do with our life if we had e.g. 4 million instead of 2 million. I also think there is a point where those differences don't matter anymore but I think you need to go beyond those numbers for that. Millions are still somewhat comprehensible in terms of how you could spend them. The difference between Ronaldo and Messi's net worth not so much. Although perhaps to them and their lifestyle it is.

Kind of odd by the way that the agent is allowed to openly talk about the press about where Almeida might go etc. I always thought you had to keep these things off-the-record until august.

 

[Bolder]

Taxes will quickly turn a 2 million salary into an 800,000 salary in many European countries.

My take on Almeida is that he's had GT success without much real support at QS, so any well financed team could be an upgrade, or at least neutral sporting wise, and if they do have strong domestiques, so much the better.

 

[lenric]

He's portuguese, hence he'll have a harder time at finding sponsorship deals when he's finished as a rider.
Perhaps being a director (as Azevedo is/was at Katusha) might be something worth it.

 

[IndianCyclist]

If the sporting achievement is big then other avenues of personal sponsorship also open up especially in the native country which can be much more than contract value.

 

[groogster]

Kind off blowing my mind the way this thread it’s going atm.
What are we talking here? 1 million vs 2 millions vs 3 or 4 millions!
We should take it back to the right direction because this is as simple as a career choice that Almeida has to make, taking into account like everyone else the financial part and for sure chosing a team that give him the role that he think he deserves, something that he may or may not regret in the future. As much I would like to see him in the next years at DQ I fully understand why he chose to change at this point.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Taxes will quickly turn a 2 million salary into an 800,000 salary in many European countries.

My take on Almeida is that he's had GT success without much real support at QS, so any well financed team could be an upgrade, or at least neutral sporting wise, and if they do have strong domestiques, so much the better.

And yet, more/better support will come to the team, because they have a long-term plan with Evenepoel regardless of what Almeida decides.
And you really think that money goes to taxes? There is a reason why all these big earners have their addresses at tax havens and work through various hubs.

Not looking for a whole argument on this but I think it's pretty understandable to prefer having a couple millions more. If only because it allows you to live comfortably in the sense of financial independence etc. as well as in the sense of more luxurious.
It's reasonable to want to maximize luxury as well and you can call that greedy but imo that is mostly for lack of a better term. I think if we all put ourselves in Almeida's shoes at that age we could surely figure out what more we could do with our life if we had e.g. 4 million instead of 2 million. I also think there is a point where those differences don't matter anymore but I think you need to go beyond those numbers for that. Millions are still somewhat comprehensible in terms of how you could spend them. The difference between Ronaldo and Messi's net worth not so much. Although perhaps to them and their lifestyle it is.

And a one, two or three million salary is not for his entire career, it's either per year or per contract term. That means he could earn up to 10 million even at "poor" team like DQT over the span of his career. You are also not taking into account that a normal person never has that amount of money at his disposal at once. And by the time a normal person earns his 1 millionth euro, he will be 65 years old, and will have spent 950.000 simply living his life up to that point. A normal person roughly pays the bank twice what his house was actually worth, since he has to pay a mortgage for 25 years. Being able to buy a house without a loan, basically means you "win" the entire value of your house in comparison to someone with a dayjob. Having that money at your disposal at once, means you can invest your money and only live on what you need at the moment.

I think money is always a question of comparison.
The guy who earns 20,000 a year thinks 100,000 a year is just huge, the 100,000 guy wants to earn the 200,000 of his boss and thinks the 20,000 guy is quite poor, while in some other part of the world for some other guy the idea of earning 20,000 a year is too much to even imagine. Messi earns an incredible amount of money, knows that's a lot, but probably thinks that he deserves it in comparison to the sheikh he just met, who just owns a club, doesn't risk his bones each week and has like x-times what he has. The star cyclist probably thinks Messi's money is insane in comparison to his 2-5 million, because his sport is way more dangerous and demanding.
It's not really about what you need, is it? How much do you need? For what?
(One big house in Munich and the million is "gone", well not gone, but one or two million aren't the kind of money where you need to start buying Pollocks and private jets to get rid of some of your money.)
((One really big economic crisis and a political change and "enough money for your children and children's children" is out of the window, anyway.))

I think we all have an idea what an "average" salary looks like, and what "enough" is, but as we start to be around a different kind of people, with a different kind of salary, that idea changes.

What I want to say: I don't think questions like these are about what you need to live a life without financial headaches. For most people it's about appreciation, and about getting what you think you deserve.

Personally, in a situation like Almeida's, I'd always rate the sportive perspective a lot, lot higher than the money, because, really, if you care about financial security, you should probably not even think about becoming a pro athlete, at least not without a prior education...
You become a pro athlete because you are chasing goals and maybe even some kind of fame.

(Then we probably have to take into consideration how young some of these guys are and that what a certain sum means or what you want to do later in your life is even harder to decide by then.)

Sure, but we weren't talking about chosing between living in the gutter or taking a 4 million check. You say the idea changes when starting to be around different kinds of people with different kinds of salary. Then what about your teammates, who are working their asses off every race, to keep you safe, to carry your water, to do the heavy lifting for 90% of the time, just so you can be as fresh as possible in the final 10%. And then think about their salary, being 10% of your salary.

Even if he were to stay at DQT the rest of his career, he would be earning multiple millions by the time he quits racing. And if 2 million isn't enough, then 4 million won't be enough either. And once you start thinking like this, it will never be enough and you will start making decisions for the wrong reasons. That's all i'm saying. I'm not saying he should definitely stay where he is, just that he should go for the best option for his future as an athlete.

 

[groogster]

I would sign with DQ for 200k/year. Does anyone has Lefevere’s phone number?
I also don’t mind to be the rider who goes for The bottles.

 

[BlueRoads]

Sure, but we weren't talking about chosing between living in the gutter or taking a 4 million check. You say the idea changes when starting to be around different kinds of people with different kinds of salary. Then what about your teammates, who are working their asses off every race, to keep you safe, to carry your water, to do the heavy lifting for 90% of the time, just so you can be as fresh as possible in the final 10%. And then think about their salary, being 10% of your salary.

Even if he were to stay at DQT the rest of his career, he would be earning multiple millions by the time he quits racing. And if 2 million isn't enough, then 4 million won't be enough either. And once you start thinking like this, it will never be enough and you will start making decisions for the wrong reasons. That's all i'm saying. I'm not saying he should definitely stay where he is, just that he should go for the best option for his future as an athlete.

I don't disagree with you here, I just wanted to highlight that money for many people isn't actually what they can buy with it, but whether they feel it is "appropriate". And what is "appropriate" depends on comparisons, usually upwards, not downwards, by the way. It's about feeling appreciated, and I guess that's the main issue here, he doesn't feel appreciated enough at DQS, neither in terms of support nor in money.
I can't tell whether he's actually right in thinking so, but he obviously thinks he deserves better.

 

[SafeBet]

As for careers getting cut short, how many careers haven't taken a nosedive due to bad careers decisions? Viviani left for a lucratieve contract...

And that's why I said for a number of reasons.
Careers have been cut short because of injuries, mental issues, clinic-related suspensions, lack of motivation, etc. What is perceived as the start of a very successful career for Almeida could actually be his prime. Athletes are well aware of this, especially the ones coming from comparatively poorer countries. Standard jobs pay a lot less in Portugal than in Germany or Belgium, so if you have the opportunity to make a fortune in a few years you maximize it. Is it greedy? Yeah. But it's also sensible.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

And that's why I said for a number of reasons.
Careers have been cut short because of injuries, mental issues, clinic-related suspensions, lack of motivation, etc. What is perceived as the start of a very successful career for Almeida could actually be his prime. Athletes are well aware of this, especially the ones coming from comparatively poorer countries. Standard jobs pay a lot less in Portugal than in Germany or Belgium, so if you have the opportunity to make a fortune in a few years you maximize it. Is it greedy? Yeah. But it's also sensible.

Your arguments actually support the claim to value career trajectory, over additional financial gain.