João Almeida - Bota Lume

[groogster]

Your arguments actually support the claim to value career trajectory, over additional financial gain.

Imo just the opposite

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Imo just the opposite

Other than injuries (which actually could also be career killers due to bad career choices... would Evenepoel have crashed in Lombardia had he taken a slower route to the top?), most of the reasons he stated, cutting careers short, are related to bad career choices. Mental issues, motivation, clinic... i'd say those are all arguments to favor a decent career trajectory, yes.

But anyway. It's my opinion, i've nothing more to add that doesn't turn into me repeating myself.

 

[groogster]

Other than injuries (which actually could also be career killers due to bad career choices... would Evenepoel have crashed in Lombardia had he taken a slower route to the top?), most of the reasons he stated, cutting careers short, are related to bad career choices. Mental issues, motivation, clinic... i'd say those are all arguments to favor a decent career trajectory, yes.

But anyway. It's my opinion, i've nothing more to add that doesn't turn into me repeating myself.

So with all of that could happen to an professional athlete and not being able to foreseen the future we should take care of our pocket as soon as possible won’t we?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So with all of that could happen to an professional athlete and not being able to foreseen the future we should take care of our pocket as soon as possible won’t we?

No, because picking the wrong option, could endanger your entire career. Like killing the goose with the golden eggs.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Super doms don't come cheap, though. DQS will probably have to fork out major $$$ to get a halfway decent mountain train. (Or turn nobodies into somebodies) Probably why Merckx is skeptical. DQS isn't among the richest teams.

I remember Dumoulin would get mountain doms at Sunweb... Van Aert would get proper support at JV. Took a while. It's still not great.

 

[Panda Claws]

And a one, two or three million salary is not for his entire career, it's either per year or per contract term. That means he could earn up to 10 million even at "poor" team like DQT over the span of his career. You are also not taking into account that a normal person never has that amount of money at his disposal at once. And by the time a normal person earns his 1 millionth euro, he will be 65 years old, and will have spent 950.000 simply living his life up to that point. A normal person roughly pays the bank twice what his house was actually worth, since he has to pay a mortgage for 25 years. Being able to buy a house without a loan, basically means you "win" the entire value of your house in comparison to someone with a dayjob. Having that money at your disposal at once, means you can invest your money and only live on what you need at the moment.

Sure I can see 'het mattheuseffect' (or something like it) playing a role. But in the end investing money only earns you a percentage hence there being a difference between the lifestyle you can look forward too depending on how many millions you took home over your career. But I don't think we disagree on those things. I just think that it's understandable to pick the extra millions if you think you can do something personally fulfilling with them. But in terms of feeling financially secure it's not going to matter no.

As to your larger point that he should also look at his career: both in terms of what palmares he can achieve and what contracts he'll be able to get in the future. I definitely agree with that. Also with that financially it might even be better to take a smaller contract now in order to secure larger contracts later instead of possibly faltering now and having worse contracts after. I can imagine though that the contract being offered is so big that to Almeida this scenario looks unlikely. Plus you can always have a career-ending crash or disease unfortunately.

I don't think we really disagree. I just want to emphasize with wanting more money and a better lifestyle even if you're already rich.

 

[Froome]

And yet, more/better support will come to the team, because they have a long-term plan with Evenepoel regardless of what Almeida decides.
And you really think that money goes to taxes? There is a reason why all these big earners have their addresses at tax havens and work through various hubs.

And a one, two or three million salary is not for his entire career, it's either per year or per contract term. That means he could earn up to 10 million even at "poor" team like DQT over the span of his career. You are also not taking into account that a normal person never has that amount of money at his disposal at once. And by the time a normal person earns his 1 millionth euro, he will be 65 years old, and will have spent 950.000 simply living his life up to that point. A normal person roughly pays the bank twice what his house was actually worth, since he has to pay a mortgage for 25 years. Being able to buy a house without a loan, basically means you "win" the entire value of your house in comparison to someone with a dayjob. Having that money at your disposal at once, means you can invest your money and only live on what you need at the moment.

Sure, but we weren't talking about chosing between living in the gutter or taking a 4 million check. You say the idea changes when starting to be around different kinds of people with different kinds of salary. Then what about your teammates, who are working their asses off every race, to keep you safe, to carry your water, to do the heavy lifting for 90% of the time, just so you can be as fresh as possible in the final 10%. And then think about their salary, being 10% of your salary.

Even if he were to stay at DQT the rest of his career, he would be earning multiple millions by the time he quits racing. And if 2 million isn't enough, then 4 million won't be enough either. And once you start thinking like this, it will never be enough and you will start making decisions for the wrong reasons. That's all i'm saying. I'm not saying he should definitely stay where he is, just that he should go for the best option for his future as an athlete.

Logic is not being your friend! (I'm just kidding with you, don't take that seriously), if bora gives more 1 or 2 million to joao than quick step, it's perfectly normal that he choses bora. Almost everybody here would do the same. That's a lot of money, joao is young and needs to take care of his life. And probably bora promise undisputed leadership to joao, quick step couldn't promise that because of remco. And i know that bora, have some guys like kelderman and Buchmann, we already talked about that, but they aren't a big "threat" for joao like remco is.

 

[jaylew]

No, because picking the wrong option, could endanger your entire career. Like killing the goose with the golden eggs.

Yeah, no way I'm making that decision as a young rider. Maybe after one big contract. You pick the wrong team and maybe your career stalls a bit but you've given yourself some stability and you can still change teams in the future. You get an injury or have a bad illness and you could be done as a top cyclist just like that.

 

[ExperienPT]

Off topic /on

Regarding money, we live in capitalism and democracy, so everyone thinks they need money money money to be valued and at the same time we know we are all equals so we all deserve value, so what we all want is money money money... The problem is money do not bring happiness, but as we (99,99%) of society will never have the kind of money we think that would make us happy we are stuck in a mouse race running for money... It is sad!

Off topic /off

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Logic is not being your friend! (I'm just kidding with you, don't take that seriously), if bora gives more 1 or 2 million to joao than quick step, it's perfectly normal that he choses bora. Almost everybody here would do the same. That's a lot of money, joao is young and needs to take care of his life. And probably bora promise undisputed leadership to joao, quick step couldn't promise that because of remco. And i know that bora, have some guys like kelderman and Buchmann, we already talked about that, but they aren't a big "threat" for joao like remco is.

Staying at DQT was merely an example. I'm not saying it is the best choice for him (but i do think it's one of the best choices he can make, all things considered). Maybe Bora is better, maybe they will be better in all regards. Better support, better money, team leader etc. All i'm saying is that money shouldn't be the deciding factor. I he gets a 1.5m deal (hypothetical) at DQT, and gets to pick 50% of races (with Remco doing the other 50%), and the team invests in better support riders, i would value that over a "potential future leader" role at UAE even if they pay 2.5m (hypothetically).

Yeah, no way I'm making that decision as a young rider. Maybe after one big contract. You pick the wrong team and maybe your career stalls a bit but you've given yourself some stability and you can still change teams in the future. You get an injury or have a bad illness and you could be done as a top cyclist just like that.

Like Pinot. Or Bardet... they also had all the time in the world, and overnight they got left in the dust and now they're 30+. Getting your career in a slump, it's not that easy to turn it around. You'll have to work your way up again, take a paycut, doing some domestique work, go to a smaller team without support and you might not get where you could have gotten otherwise. Obviously there are cases like that of Lambrecht, who got killed, or Froome who'll never reach his old level again, but stories like these are grossly outnumbered by stories of great talents that made a wrong career choice and never lived up to their potential. We can all get hit by a car any day of the week.

 

[jaylew]

Of course I'm aware of all that and If the numbers are fairly close, sure. It still makes no sense to me to pass up 50% of your potential earnings very early in a career. Too much of a gamble when your chosen occupation is athlete.

And you're also making my point. Bardet and Pinot have had no problem continuing to make a lot of money. If your career is derailed by an accident or illness that won't be the case.

 

[Bonimenier]

Of course I'm aware of all that and If the numbers are fairly close, sure. It still makes no sense to me to pass up 50% of your potential earnings very early in a career. Too much of a gamble when your chosen occupation is athlete.

That's interesting. I was just thinking the opposite. I feel like it makes no sense to pass up on extra money later in a career. Early in a career sporting ambitions should come first imo.

 

[jaylew]

That's interesting. I was just thinking the opposite. I feel like it makes no sense to pass up on extra money later in a career. Early in a career sporting ambitions should come first imo.

But you're assuming you have sporting ambitions in the future. You have a bad crash that could be the end of your sporting ambitions. An athlete's career typically doesn't last a long time so if you have a chance to get some financial stability I won't begrudge anyone that choice.

You see it all the time in team sports in the US - guys taking less later in their careers to go to a team with a chance of winning a championship.

Honestly, it's all a gamble. Any choice can backfire. I would just never criticize an athlete taking the money if they haven't yet signed a big contract that would grant them some stability and peace of mind when you never know how long your career will last

 

[ExperienPT]

It's not as Bora is the wrong choice + money vs DQS the right choice - money... Regarding sporting ambitions it is still a dilemma and if the money is double it solves the dilemma!

 

[Bonimenier]

But you're assuming you have sporting ambitions in the future. You have a bad crash that could be the end of your sporting ambitions. An athlete's career typically doesn't last a long time so if you have a chance to get some financial stability I won't begrudge anyone that choice.

You see it all the time in team sports in the US - guys taking less later in their careers to go to a team with a chance of winning a championship.

Honestly, it's all a gamble. Any choice can backfire. I would just never criticize an athlete taking the money if they haven't yet signed a big contract that would grant them some stability and peace of mind when you never know how long your career will last

Sure, an athlete's career can end soon, but I do think it's wrong for a 22 year old, promising athlete to assume that his career is going to end soon. Just doesn't seem like healthy mental state to be in.

Comparison with team sports in the US is not a good one. Yeah, there are teams in cycling, but at the end it's your personal victories that count.

 

[jaylew]

Sure, an athlete's career can end soon, but I do think it's wrong for a 22 year old, promising athlete to assume that his career is going to end soon. Just doesn't seem like healthy mental state to be in.

It's not about assuming, it's like insurance. I don't assume I'm going to have a heart attack, I'm going to wreck my car, or a tornado is going to level my house but I still pay insurance. Just look at all the promising riders whose careers just didn't pan out the way we thought they might. You just never know.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Make hay while the sun shines. A crash/disease can completely ruin a persons career as seen from history. Regret cannot bring back what was lost. For sure Landa is not ruing the money

 

[Leinster]

Staying at DQT was merely an example. I'm not saying it is the best choice for him (but i do think it's one of the best choices he can make, all things considered). Maybe Bora is better, maybe they will be better in all regards. Better support, better money, team leader etc. All i'm saying is that money shouldn't be the deciding factor. I he gets a 1.5m deal (hypothetical) at DQT, and gets to pick 50% of races (with Remco doing the other 50%), and the team invests in better support riders, i would value that over a "potential future leader" role at UAE even if they pay 2.5m (hypothetically).

There's a couple of issues here; we don't know the numbers, figures like 2mil, 4 mil, 1.5m are getting plucked out of the air, but we don't know how much less QS have offered Almeida, or how much more Bora or UAE have offered.

We also don't know how much support each team has offered, or what kind of program they've put forward. Or how much resources they can promise to commit to GC aspirations. Bora look to be losing the considerable expense of Sagan and co (an expense Quickstep balked at), so probably have funds to not only pay Almeida a lot (but still less than Sagan) but also bring in some strong mountain support for him. Movistar and Bora right now look like teams with a lot of Indians, but no big chief.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

There's a couple of issues here; we don't know the numbers, figures like 2mil, 4 mil, 1.5m are getting plucked out of the air, but we don't know how much less QS have offered Almeida, or how much more Bora or UAE have offered.

We also don't know how much support each team has offered, or what kind of program they've put forward. Or how much resources they can promise to commit to GC aspirations. Bora look to be losing the considerable expense of Sagan and co (an expense Quickstep balked at), so probably have funds to not only pay Almeida a lot (but still less than Sagan) but also bring in some strong mountain support for him. Movistar and Bora right now look like teams with a lot of Indians, but no big chief.

Of course i agree, we're simply making assumptions and stating hypotheses. We don't have all the facts.

 

[Froome]

There's a couple of issues here; we don't know the numbers, figures like 2mil, 4 mil, 1.5m are getting plucked out of the air, but we don't know how much less QS have offered Almeida, or how much more Bora or UAE have offered.

We also don't know how much support each team has offered, or what kind of program they've put forward. Or how much resources they can promise to commit to GC aspirations. Bora look to be losing the considerable expense of Sagan and co (an expense Quickstep balked at), so probably have funds to not only pay Almeida a lot (but still less than Sagan) but also bring in some strong mountain support for him. Movistar and Bora right now look like teams with a lot of Indians, but no big chief.

Bora already have a lot of support for almeida/ a good team for the mountains. Almeida, buchmann, kelderman, kamna,fabro, konrad, groshchartner.

 

[Leinster]

Bora already have a lot of support for almeida/ a good team for the mountains. Almeida, buchmann, kelderman, kamna,fabro, konrad, groshchartner.

Right, and Movistar similar (Mas, Pedrero, Soler, Muhlberger). They're both teams with ambitions (Movistar have been winning GTs for 30+ years, Bora want to win GTs) but with nobody on the books right now who can definitely match those ambitions. Signing Almeida makes sense for both of them, the question is how to sweeten the pot for him.

 

[Froome]

Right, and Movistar similar (Mas, Pedrero, Soler, Muhlberger). They're both teams with ambitions (Movistar have been winning GTs for 30+ years, Bora want to win GTs) but with nobody on the books right now who can definitely match those ambitions. Signing Almeida makes sense for both of them, the question is how to sweeten the pot for him.

Im my opinion bora it would be better than movistar for joao. Movistar have a lot of problems in terms of organization, problems between the leaders and cyclists and diretors like we saw on the documentary on netflix.

 

[BlueRoads]

Im my opinion bora it would be better than movistar for joao. Movistar have a lot of problems in terms of organization, problems between the leaders and cyclists and diretors like we saw on the documentary on netflix.

That's the negative side, isn't it? I'm sure they will gain fans through this, because people feel closer the riders and the team, but they don't seem to look like the team to really get your career started.

 

[MnR]

I think that UAE would be a better option than Bora.
At UAE only Pogacar is a GT leader, Ayuso is just 18(19?) and Ardila is the same age as João but zero results since step up to WT. In another perpective its a team that seems to have a good staff and already have a few portugueses on it (without contrat for 2021 but...)

In Bora Buchmann and Kelderman will want leadership in GT, and its a German team that in case of doubt will favor someone from a more atractive market for the sponsor. The staff and support wouldn't be a problem.

Movistar seems stop in time. Every promising rider that goes there stop showing results (Mas and Cortina most recently). They would be able to create a good core arround João, but the way team works its too troublessome.

Ineos already have too many leaders.

Two teams that would be a nice fitting, imo, Trek and ISN.
Like somebody told already, in Trek, Nibali is leaving, Mollema get a top5 is a huge goal nowadays, Ciccone is a bad TT.
ISN put a lot of money in Froome, and its quiet obvios that he will not get any great result soon. They don't have any GT leader besides D. Martin and is a team that every year has made a step foward, improving stuff and rider.

 

[Leinster]

I think that UAE would be a better option than Bora.
At UAE only Pogacar is a GT leader, Ayuso is just 18(19?) and Ardila is the same age as João but zero results since step up to WT. In another perpective its a team that seems to have a good staff and already have a few portugueses on it (without contrat for 2021 but...)

In Bora Buchmann and Kelderman will want leadership in GT, and its a German team that in case of doubt will favor someone from a more atractive market for the sponsor. The staff and support wouldn't be a problem.

Movistar seems stop in time. Every promising rider that goes there stop showing results (Mas and Cortina most recently). They would be able to create a good core arround João, but the way team works its too troublessome.

Ineos already have too many leaders.

Two teams that would be a nice fitting, imo, Trek and ISN.
Like somebody told already, in Trek, Nibali is leaving, Mollema get a top5 is a huge goal nowadays, Ciccone is a bad TT.
ISN put a lot of money in Froome, and its quiet obvios that he will not get any great result soon. They don't have any GT leader besides D. Martin and is a team that every year has made a step foward, improving stuff and rider.

Re Bora; If it's a case where "the road will decide," I think Almeida should be confident of being better than Buchmann or Kelderman. If he can't be better than them, then a lot of what's been said on this thread is irrelevant.

UAE only has one GT leader right now, but Pogacar's young and likely to be there for a long time. Whoever signs for them right now, is signing to be Tadej's support, even Hirschi.

Movistar can't do anything right, but when they have one leader for one job, they can produce (2 GTs for Quintana, 4 LBL's for Valverde). If Almeida goes to Movistar now, he is that one leader.

ISN is actually a good call that I hadn't considered. Not only is Froome on the way out, Martin and Woods are getting older too, and they clearly have deep pockets.