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Jonas Vingegaard: Godzilla, the King of Monsters

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Samu Cuenca

Samu Cuenca

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Cookster15 said:
TBF, the gap between Pog and Aru / Martin’s levels is the Grand Canyon.

I notice Wiki says this …

Nine years old? This suggests he showed ability long before Gianetti got hold of him at UAE. I also see his major results started back in 2015 at age 17? Vingegaard’s early results are nothing like this hence my views.
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He was a big talent before he joined UAE, but he wasn't the genetic freak he is today. And we have already discussed Vingegaard's lack of results as a junior and U23 rider and the possbile reasons therefore, so there's no need to circle back to that again.
 
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BR2

BR2

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Samu Cuenca said:
His past injuries are indeed among the possible reasons for his "late" development.


That was the first major crash, but he was also set back by crashes in 2018 and 19, as well as that persisting Achilles tendon issue he's allegedly fully recovered from now.
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He wasn't a world beater and nothing indicated he would be. Now he is.
He's one of these freak guys where you can find all kinds of reasons why he didn't show his potential, but at one point it's just basic that had he been this complete alien earlier he very likely would have shown it at some point.
 
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Samu Cuenca

Samu Cuenca

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BR2 said:
He wasn't a world beater and nothing indicated he would be. Now he is.
He's one of these freak guys where you can find all kinds of reasons why he didn't show his potential, but at one point it's just basic that had he been this complete alien earlier he very likely would have shown it at some point.
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Well there's a difference between having the potential to become a good rider and being able to reach Vingegaard's current level. I'm talking about the former, not the latter, which I don't believe there's any way to reach without the help of PEDs, but that goes for the level of all the top 6 or maybe even 60 riders as well, in my opinion.
 
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Netserk

Netserk

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Red Rick said:
I mean, the guy is a freak show.

Having said that, the combination of super even pacing, motodraft, and some nice group 2 dynamic circus show behind him in addition to the weak field doesn't hurt either. I don't believe for a second Pogacar would be dropped by the initial attack here.
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Did he really have any more drafting than Yates did? It was a very straight comparison between the two, both going hard and steady.

Imaging if this Vingegaard showed up in Romandie and won on Thyon 2000 with almost 2 minutes down to Yates. That's a bloody massacre.
 
Red Rick

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Netserk said:
Did he really have any more drafting than Yates did? It was a very straight comparison between the two, both going hard and steady.

Imaging if this Vingegaard showed up in Romandie and won on Thyon 2000 with almost 2 minutes down to Yates. That's a bloody massacre.
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From motors? Yes. Obviously not enough to explain a gap of 41 seconds, but I don't doubt it can cause a gap of a handful of seconds.

And I think it's very silly to extrapolate this gap to Thyon 2000, especially if you look at the overall profile of the final 30km. The gaps between Yates and those who were also there in Romandie aren't exactly only 1/3 of the size and similarly I also think it's silly claim the entire top 6 of Thyon would have beaten Jai Hindley today.

s/min differences just tend to be bigger on shorter efforts.
 
Cookster15

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Samu Cuenca said:
I don't believe there's any way to reach without the help of PEDs, but that goes for the level of all the top 6 or maybe even 60 riders as well, in my opinion.
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Depends. Yours would be the consensus view of most cycling fans but not sure this is sound based upon science.

Edit: BR's view echoes mine. Good to see the Clinic has caught on. Not quite the new Froome but certainly a freak show.
 
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Samu Cuenca

Samu Cuenca

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Cookster15 said:
Depends. Yours would be the consensus view of most cycling fans but not sure this is sound based upon science.

Edit: BR's view echoes mine. Good to see the Clinic has caught on. Not quite the new Froome but certainly a freak show.
Click to expand...
I don't think there's any reason to target a specific rider unless you have information about what he might be using, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

Cadel Evans and the guys of his era, and those before and after as well, used EPO, blood bags and cortisone among other things, but nowadays we can't be sure what's going on. Are people up to same old tricks or have new methods replaced the old ones?

The only thing I know is that the riders aren't to blame. The problem is the system which has been build up over the years by teams, national federations, the UCI, the anti-doping authorities, doctors, "doctors", media etc. which has allowed it to reach the current state. But this is obviously not solely a cycling issue. It's the same in other sports, too.

Jonas Vingegaard is simply a product of that environment, but he could just as well have been an American named Joey Wingfarm or a German called Johannes Flügelhof.
 
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Cookster15

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Samu Cuenca said:
Cadel Evans and the guys of his era, and those before and after as well, used EPO, blood bags and cortisone among other things, but nowadays we can't be sure what's going on. Are people up to same old tricks or have new methods replaced the old ones?

The only thing I know is that the riders aren't to blame. The problem is the system which has been build up over the years by teams, national federations, the UCI, the anti-doping authorities, doctors, "doctors", media etc. which has allowed it to reach the current state. But this is obviously not solely a cycling issue. It's the same in other sports, too.

Jonas Vingegaard is simply a product of that environment, but he could just as well have been an American named Joey Wingfarm or a German called Johannes Flügelhof.
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I fully agree riders are not to blame - it is their profession and if they want to have a job they need to fit in.

As for Cadel, at risk of sidetracking this thread, he was extensively discussed in the Clinic and had his own thread. The arguments against him were very unconvincing - mostly around his brief association with Ferrari or to compete with dopers was impossible - not necessarily. Ferarri was not simply a doping doctor but the most highly regarded doctor in cycling in 1999 and helped get Evans from MTB into European based Pro cycling. It is no coincidence that the only Grand Tour Evans won was also the cleanest looking. For example, in 2011 TdF Alpe d'Huez was climbed in 42 minutes by the GC group compared with 39 minutes by Pog/Vingo/Thomas last year - 3 minutes is 1km at the pace these guys climb. Tyler Hamilton and Tom Boonan backed up my view of him.

And we can't be critical of universally derided Froome and not be equally critical of Vingegaard as a "product" of the cycling environment. As others above have since chimed in, Vingegaard's career trajectory looks very suspicious. Particularly when we consider he rose at he exact moment JV lost their top rider due to injury. Riders with talent to do what we are now seeing only since 2021 should have shown much better results as a younger age. I don't feel this is explained by his problems in 2017.
 
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Netserk

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Samu Cuenca said:
I don't think there's any reason to target a specific rider unless you have information about what he might be using, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

Cadel Evans and the guys of his era, and those before and after as well, used EPO, blood bags and cortisone among other things, but nowadays we can't be sure what's going on. Are people up to same old tricks or have new methods replaced the old ones?

The only thing I know is that the riders aren't to blame. The problem is the system which has been build up over the years by teams, national federations, the UCI, the anti-doping authorities, doctors, "doctors", media etc. which has allowed it to reach the current state. But this is obviously not solely a cycling issue. It's the same in other sports, too.

Jonas Vingegaard is simply a product of that environment, but he could just as well have been an American named Joey Wingfarm or a German called Johannes Flügelhof.
Click to expand...
There is no "the system".

What is to blame is the human condition and the nature of competition. That too can be said of crime, yet it's still meaningful to blame individuals.

Blame works, blame is good.
 
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Red Rick

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Netserk said:
There is no "the system".

What is to blame is the human condition and the nature of competition. That too can be said of crime, yet it's still meaningful to blame individuals.

Blame works, blame is good.
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IMO you're both right. There's definitely an environment that facilitates some extensive use of rocket fuel, but the human nature of cheating when there's incentive and when it's likely you get away with it ofcourse also play a role.

That said, I'm not even sure we can call it blame unless we know something specific. All we can do at this point is highlighting the freakshows without knowing much about what is going on.
 
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