Jonas Vingegaard Rasmussen, the new alpha mutant

[Riek s]

That’s great, they weren’t pro wins or even against decent competition. One rider won at world tour level, the other didn’t and struggled in everything but TT with good results when the competition was decent. Just saying

A win is a win

But talking about that win in the tour of pologne, he won a single etappe in a sprint of 3 against Pavel Sivakov who is a year younger (born in 1997) and who won the overal. (while JV was 26th at 12minutes).

So if we assume he was showing talent in that single stage for his age group. he lost the overal to someone younger than him.

 

[Eeslliw]

Regarding bleeding elbow, I think that is from the crash in XX stage, and with TT bars the wound got irritated. So please guys, Jonas is clean.

 

[topt]

Claiming Vingegaard was a nobody before 2021 is misinformation.
He had a number of impressive performances since very young age. His 9th place in the MTT to Balea Lac at 19, for example, was an indicator of climbing talent. And the competition wasn't as bad as one might think: a few sputniks, Rebellin, Pellizotti and Bernal (who's only a month younger than him). Crashes slowed down his development but he still had a few relevant results among the u23 ranks, he was very consistent in 2018 up until he crashed out of Val d'Aosta.

After turning pro with Jumbo, he showed potential in a few races here and there. His stage win in Pologne came against tough opposition and he was good throughout summer after that race.
The problem is he rarely showed consistency and surely not the kind of day to day climbing level required to contend for a GT. The day after his stage win in Pologne, while in the yellow jersey, he lost almost 15 minutes (and not for lack of team support).
Even in the 2020 Vuelta, a race which according to someone proved his ability on long climbs, he had a few very promising performances (Angliru above all) but he completely disappeared in other mountain stages: he lost 17 minutes in the Formigal stage where Roglic was left with no support and lost the jersey and more than 20 minutes in the Covatilla stage where Roglic was again in danger.

Up to the 2021 UAE Tour, where he won the Jabel Jais stage but still didn't feature in GC, I viewed him as a potential super domestique and elite stage hunter. Best case scenario to me was winning GT mountain stages from the break and possibly some one week stage races. But something was clearly changing. Coppi e Bartali was an indicator although against lesser opposition, Itzulia a confirmation: he was climbing with the top talents in the sport on a day to day basis. @Netserk has a point when he says there wasn't a gigantic leap from Itzulia 2021 to Tour 2021, but prior to that the leap was indeed gigantic. And he keeps improving: he's now climbing a lot better than the top talents in the sport, while having the best recovery and possibly winning TTs at the Tour de France.

you can make a case for every pro rider to be a talent to win TDF based on this

 

[red_flanders]

3mins 26secs in this video. Blood stain clearly visible at left elbow on starting ramp. Don't think it can be from wiping a nosebleed (which might have been even more suspicious) given the positioning of the stain.

View: https://youtu.be/lLEhg8nidQU

Come on. That's clearly a black stain, probably grease. No part of me thinks he's clean but I tend to doubt he was getting an injection before the race such that it stained his jersey.

 

[firefly3323]

Come on. That's clearly a black stain, probably grease. No part of me thinks he's clean but I tend to doubt he was getting an injection before the race such that it stained his jersey.

Yup, doesn't look like anything shady to me.....he is guilty as sin nonetheless.

 

[SHAD0W93]

A win is a win

But talking about that win in the tour of pologne, he won a single etappe in a sprint of 3 against Pavel Sivakov who is a year younger (born in 1997) and who won the overal. (while JV was 26th at 12minutes).

So if we assume he was showing talent in that single stage for his age group. he lost the overal to someone younger than him.

That is true though we’re told all the time not all wins are the same and a pro win is better then an amateur one against bad-decent competition. People lose to someone younger or older then them all the time.

 

[Ripper]

well if you consider Pog is doped than the fisherman must be on something even stronger which makes them the victims

Lol. That's an interesting assumption. May or may not be the case. Do you view this as a doping contest and what makes one the heavier doper? What if vingo is doping less has a great at response? In fact, what if the amount of doping is actually the opposite order of the podium ... G unit is literally a walking pharmacy, pogo is 75% chemically enhanced, and vingo is just topping up? I mean, there are quite a few permutations here, and it's all pretty laughable stuff at the top end isn't it?

 

[The Hegelian]

The rate of recovery is what really stands out to me about JV's performances. Wout and Vingegaard never looked tired or had a jour sans. We've seen Tony Martin ride off the front all day by himself but he never did it 10 times in a single TDF.

Chapeau to the doctor who figured out how to recover like this (be it ketones, gene therapy, or novel drugs). It would be very boring if it turns out to just be more protectionism on the part of the UCI.

Touche. I think that last decade the really big change was weight loss without losing power. Wiggo et al. Now it as exactly as you have said - these guys don't seem to pay any price for the energy they use.

 

[SafeBet]

you can make a case for every pro rider to be a talent to win TDF based on this

I struggle to see where I made a case for Vingo though.
Just gave some context.

 

[Fergoose]

Come on. That's clearly a black stain, probably grease. No part of me thinks he's clean but I tend to doubt he was getting an injection before the race such that it stained his jersey.

The UK coverage specifically zoomed in on it, with both commentators saying blood with complete conviction, then speculating if he'd had a crash earlier that day and whether it would impact on his performance. It looked red when I saw it on the TV and there was no indication the TV crew were up to mischief. Unless your name is really Black Flanders. : p

 

[red_flanders]

The UK coverage specifically zoomed in on it, with both commentators saying blood with complete conviction, then speculating if he'd had a crash earlier that day and whether it would impact on his performance. It looked red when I saw it on the TV and there was no indication the TV crew were up to mischief. Unless your name is really Black Flanders. : p

Looking at it again, looks like it could be from whatever fall he had, it matches with the abrasions on his knee, so I stand corrected.

What it’s not is an injection site.

—Black Flanders

 

[zlev11]

hmmmm maybe he crashed on purpose so he could inject blood into his elbow and have a cover for it.

 

[Ripper]

In a Tour chalk full of ridiculous, that final TT by vingo was just silly, which is always the case when climbers TT ahead of TT specialists on reasonable TT specialist terrain (e.g. rolling, possibly small climbs). Another head shaking laughable moment, unfortunately.

Re: the elbow, ummm, pretty sure that is from a previous abrasion, but hey, could've been something else. Here's a hint for folks - not really the area you would see something nefarious being done.

 

[Cookster15]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1551521554311401472

View: https://twitter.com/faustocoppi60/status/1551521554311401472?t=ZY_ppl_qOSENIBTifm3RpQ&s=19

What we can learn from this is that he was promising, out of the ordinary and that he is 58 kg.

time-trialling on the flat at 58 kg

And this 58Kg skeleton managed this performance on stage 20. It would still be thermonuclear if he managed to ride 50.6km/h on stage 1. Yet he somehow pulled this out after three weeks of racing in record heat?

Looking at the recent TdF winners (since 2011), this is the least acceptable to me. A creation of science to correct the "wrong" of 19 September, 2020 and the looks on the faces of WvA and Dumo.

Science also includes selecting suitable candidates. This guy stands out as the most super of super responders. And the TT power also suggests Vingo was holding back in the mountains. Which probably explains why Pog's constant attacks had no impact except to wear down Pog.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Science also includes selecting suitable candidates. This guy stands out as the most super of super responders. And the TT power also suggests Vingo was holding back in the mountains. Which probably explains why Pog's constant attacks had no impact except to wear down Pog.

Remember that Vinge is ridiculously thin. His upper body is like my leg (and I'm not fat) so low aero drag area.

 

[Cookster15]

Remember that Vinge is ridiculously thin. His upper body is like my leg (and I'm not fat) so low aero drag area.

Yes I get this. It is similar to Pozzovivo who also did some great TT’s despite being small thanks to his low position and aero. But it is still a big stretch to what we saw on Saturday, after three weeks, on that course, looking at his rise from obscurity pre 2021 and compared to the rampaging WvA. I just can’t swallow that.

 

[roundabout]

For a rider who supposedly had great test results and was already very aerodynamic without having seen the wind tunnel, Vingegaard's pre-Jumbo ITT results are very mysterious

 

[Ripper]

hmmmm maybe he crashed on purpose so he could inject blood into his elbow and have a cover for it.

I do that all the time!

More seriously (but laughable), I know someone (and not just the famous story of a pro, but an actual racer) who abused cortisone injections and rubbed themselves raw in the saddle area and then also used topical cortisone as the 'cover'. Then their homemade abrasion got infected!

 

[Ripper]

And this 58Kg skeleton managed this performance on stage 20. It would still be thermonuclear if he managed to ride 50.6km/h on stage 1. Yet he somehow pulled this out after three weeks of racing in record heat?

Looking at the recent TdF winners (since 2011), this is the least acceptable to me. A creation of science to correct the "wrong" of 19 September, 2020 and the looks on the faces of WvA and Dumo.

Science also includes selecting suitable candidates. This guy stands out as the most super of super responders. And the TT power also suggests Vingo was holding back in the mountains. Which probably explains why Pog's constant attacks had no impact except to wear down Pog.

Le Maillot Jaune ... it gives you wings (as does Red Bull, thus WvWFT)

 

[hrotha]

For a rider who supposedly had great test results and was already very aerodynamic without having seen the wind tunnel, Vingegaard's pre-Jumbo ITT results are very mysterious

Yeah but he couldn't showcase his time-trialing talent because [checks notes] there were no mountains

 

[red_flanders]

...

Looking at the recent TdF winners (since 2011), this is the least acceptable to me. A creation of science to correct the "wrong" of 19 September, 2020 and the looks on the faces of WvA and Dumo.

Well I don't know if there are winners you found legitimate during that time, but yeah. He's easily as absurd as many of the others in that time frame. That said, he doesn't really jump out for me, there have been some genuinely comical performances during that run. Watching guys throttle it back late in Tours to not make it look too absurd was always funny, as were the motorbike impersonations. Those bugged me more than this one.

 

[spredy]

For a rider who supposedly had great test results and was already very aerodynamic without having seen the wind tunnel, Vingegaard's pre-Jumbo ITT results are very mysterious

I genuinely saw someone suggest that previously he didn't have custom TT handlebars before, and part of the change was suddenly getting all the good equipment.

As if that's enough to dethrone TT specialists who haven't spent three weeks fighting day in day out.

 

[hender-retour]

Have to admit I was surprised by his level. Even with last Year in mind that should have been a omen if You look at what happened the Year before 96, and 07 in danish terms.

I guess he really did all he could to win this

 

[Cookster15]

...

Well I don't know if there are winners you found legitimate during that time, but yeah. He's easily as absurd as many of the others in that time frame. That said, he doesn't really jump out for me, there have been some genuinely comical performances during that run. Watching guys throttle it back late in Tours to not make it look too absurd was always funny, as were the motorbike impersonations. Those bugged me more than this one.

Doesn’t jump out? LOL. He is the most absurd I have seen since Contador 2009. Plenty of evidence. Take the Alpe times for example - over 2 minutes faster than AC in 2011. After that TT and commments from others here are I actually think he was holding back in the mountains. And this after we all thought Pogacar was unbeatable.

 

[Jeppeb]

Doesn’t jump out? LOL. He is the most absurd I have seen since Contador 2009. Plenty of evidence. Take the Alpe times for example - over 2 minutes faster than AC in 2011. After that TT and commments from others here are I actually think he was holding back in the mountains. And this after we all thought Pogacar was unbeatable.

Vingegaards time on Hautacam was only the 18th fastest in history Riis rode it 2 minutes faster in 1996. And only the 19th best on Alpe d'huez 1,5 minutes slower than Pantani 1995. Mind you there has been radical improvements in the equipment and they are still quite a bit slower than 25 years ago where they rode on heavy junk cycles. I'm not saying he is clean, but he is not riding on the heavy gear.