Jonas Vingegaard Rasmussen, the new alpha mutant

[Andy schleck]

Who is more believable? Remco, vingegaard, roglic or pogacar?

 

[Gwbert]

Who is more believable? Remco, vingegaard, roglic or pogacar?

Roglic, why not eh?

 

[Extinction]

I didn't create this thread, you did? I am highlighting forum double standards.

I notice others have chimed in. Personally, I am no fan of Froome but I find it a "yawn" that we still have people complaining about a rider who we expect to announce his retirement any day when the current TdF champion who miraculously reveals himself after Roglic's injury and who yet was virtual nobody before July 2021, is doing crazy things again as the 2023 TdF approaches.

This is an opinion forum, and my opinion is as valid as yours, particularly if I back that up with facts, logic and reason. I have already done so in this thread since you created it during the 2022 TdF. And I maintain, Vingegaard is less believable than Pog purely on their past records. Yet Pog's "Gianetti" clinic thread was more active than this one which you created? Double standards right there.

So how is Vingegaard any less credible than Pog? Both ride for teams, Jumbo through Rabobank, UAE through Lampre/Gianetti, which have equally less credibility, if we are judging based on historical considerations. Unlike Froome, however, both started to emerge young, Pog even more precociously, however, Vingegaard has hardly been a late bloomer. And unlike Froome neither have experienced such an improbably farcical rise to the top followed by such a precipitously pathetic decline, which makes the Briton from Kenya here in the clinc understandably a continued object of sardonic derision. Whereas I think the Pog/Gianetti equasion has simply been to point out that all may not be as entirely wholesome as it seems, and that the Pog emerging so sensationally under the Italian's mentorship is right cause for skepticism. The same goes for Vingegaard at Jumbo. I thus don't see how one needs to be deemed less credible than the other.

 

[Extinction]

agree with Cookster. somehow Jumbo (the former Rabobank) gets more sympathy than UAE (former Lampre) and Vingegaard had a sudden rise, very sudden.

Lampre goes back to the 1990s, with Giuseppe Saronni team manager from 1999-2004. How on earth should the team get an more (or less) sympathy than Rabobank? The sport was entirely on the same program throughout this period.

 

[Andy schleck]

Roglic, why not eh?

It's funny when they say vingegaard is less believable than pog, or when they say remco is more believable than pog.

The ex football player is believable? He retired from footbal 6 years ago, and started soon having results. It's not believable.


Roglic has come from ski jumping later, it's also not believable.

Vingegaard was discover on strava in 2018, and very fast he showed results. Its also not believable.


Pogacar is with gianneti, san millan, matxin, the guys were close to ricardo ricco and piepopli. C'mon, nobody is really believable. There's always a story suspicious about everybody.

 

[Cookster15]

So how is Vingegaard any less credible than Pog? Both ride for teams, Jumbo through Rabobank, UAE through Lampre/Gianetti, which have equally less credibility, if we are judging based on historical considerations. Unlike Froome, however, both started to emerge young, Pog even more precociously, however, Vingegaard has hardly been a late bloomer. And unlike Froome neither have experienced such an improbably farcical rise to the top followed by such a precipitously pathetic decline, which makes the Briton from Kenya here in the clinc understandably continued object of sardonic derision. Whereas I think the Pog/Gianetti equasion has simply been to point out that all may not be as entirely wholesome as seems, and that the Pog emerging so sensationally under the Italian's mentorship is right cause forskepticism. The same goes for Vingegaard at Jumbo. I thus don't see how one needs to be deemed less credible than the other.

Except it's not "the same goes for Vingegaard at Jumbo" here is it? I say he is less credible, and I am neither Dutch, British or Slovenian. Froome is yesterday's news and a case of "look over there".

No, 26 year old Vingegaard isn't a late bloomer but what had he done prior to Ventoux 2021 to give any clue? Certainly less than Pogacar had achieved already by 2020 at the age of 21 e.g. Pog won the 2018 Tour de l'Avenir.

Any casual view of their records together with their ages validates what I am pointing out. It was too conincedental after Roglic's injury that JV discovered Vingegaard.

 

[Cookster15]

It's funny when they say vingegaard is less believable than pog, or when they say remco is more believable than pog.

The ex football player is believable? He retired from footbal 6 years ago, and started soon having results. It's not believable.


Roglic has come from ski jumping later, it's also not believable.

Vingegaard was discover on strava in 2018, and very fast he showed results. Its also not believable.


Pogacar is with gianneti, san millan, matxin, the guys were close to ricardo ricco and piepopli. C'mon, nobody is really believable. There's always a story suspicious about everybody.

More look over there. I never said the others were clean. This is the Vingegaard thread, and more scrutiny is required.

 

[Andy schleck]

More look over there. I never said the others were clean. This is the Vingegaard thread, and more scrutiny is required.

That's fair. I just think he is in the same level of "believe" of pog, remco and roglic.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

At the end of 2020 (when Vinge was already 24) nobody would predict he would soon become such a beast. Obviously he had some good results but that's it. The leap was huuuge, surely. At the age of 24 Pogacar is a multiple Tour and monuments winner and already one of the best riders of this century.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Except it's not "the same goes for Vingegaard at Jumbo" here is it? I say he is less credible, and I am neither Dutch, British or Slovenian. Froome is yesterday's news and a case of "look over there".

No, 26 year old Vingegaard isn't a late bloomer but what had he done prior to Ventoux 2021 to give any clue? Certainly less than Pogacar had achieved already by 2020 at the age of 21 e.g. Pog won the 2018 Tour de l'Avenir.

Any casual view of their records together with their ages validates what I am pointing out. It was too conincedental after Roglic's injury that JV discovered Vingegaard.

Sure Vingegaard didn't look like he would be finishing on the podium going into the 2021 Tour, but he had had a pretty good season at that point and wasn't suddenly discovered when Roglič was injured.

 

[Extinction]

Except it's not "the same goes for Vingegaard at Jumbo" here is it? I say he is less credible, and I am neither Dutch, British or Slovenian. Froome is yesterday's news and a case of "look over there".

No, 26 year old Vingegaard isn't a late bloomer but what had he done prior to Ventoux 2021 to give any clue? Certainly less than Pogacar had achieved already by 2020 at the age of 21 e.g. Pog won the 2018 Tour de l'Avenir.

Any casual view of their records together with their ages validates what I am pointing out. It was too conincedental after Roglic's injury that JV discovered Vingegaard.

Vingegaard was 24 when he dropped Pog on the second ascent of Ventoux in 2021, so not a late bloomer as we seem to agree. Today's cycling is a numbers game, thus it's not always necessary to win the Tour de l'Avenir to demonstrate potential. He produced high numbers and Jumbo put him on the program, cultivated and mentored him under Roglic, Wout, et al and voilà! He responded well to an environment that brought out the young rider's full potential in a few years. Because they, Jumbo, knew perfectly well what they were working with. All he needed to do was respond to the "program".

By contrast, Pog didn't need any massagging. All the Slovenian needed was Saronni, Gianetti, San Millan, Matxin (the guys who reared Ricco and Leonardo Piepoli) and voilà. It's the same thing, just different trajectories and timetables, as not every cyclist developes homogeneously.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Vingegaard was 24 when he dropped Pog on the second ascent of Ventoux in 2021, so not a late bloomer as we seem to agree. Today's cycling is a numbers game, thus it's not always necessary to win the Tour de l'Avenir to demonstrate potential. He produced high numbers and Jumbo put him on the program, cultivated and mentored him under Roglic, Wout, et al and voilà! He responded well to an environment that brought out the young rider's full potential in a few years. Because they, Jumbo, knew perfectly well what they were working with. All he needed to do was respond to the "program".

By contrast, Pog didn't need any massagging. All the Slovenian needed was Saronni, Gianetti, San Millan, Matxin (the guys who reared Ricco and Leonardo Piepoli) and voilà. It's the same thing, just different trajectories and timetables, as not every cyclist developes homogeniously.

I agree that cyclists developments are different and Vinge's sudden rise is associated with him starting a top fuel program (which prodigies like Evenepoel and Pogacar probably started earlier).

 

[Cookster15]

Sure Vingegaard didn't look like he would be finishing on the podium going into the 2021 Tour, but he had had a pretty good season at that point and wasn't suddenly discovered when Roglič was injured.

Well, when he distanced Pog on Ventoux in 2021there was a bunch of YouTube videos that sprung up as everyone was shocked. Then by the start of the 2022 TdF, the hype died down, I think most assumed that was an aberration and Pog was a strong favourite to "three peat". But then Granon and Hautacam happened, followed by that thermonuclear stage 20 TT. Remember, this was against Pogacar, the two time defending champion who did what we saw on La Planche des Belles Filles.

So, I have a very hard time thinking Vingegaard is any more credible than Chris Froome. And yet, here we are in 2023 and he is looking like he can do it again? There is no way Vingegaard is a greater talent than Pogacar - absolutely no way. I say he is a super responding creation.

Anyway, good to see the discussion is up to a level I would expect

Edit: Feel free to check the TdF betting markets in June 2021. Vingo had a good season but nothing to suggest what was about to happen.

 

[Extinction]

I agree that cyclists developments are different and Vinge's sudden rise is associated with him starting a top fuel program.

Sure but Saronni, who discovered Pog, just beat Jumbo to the punch a couple of years prior, by making sure immediately under Gianetti, San Milan and Maxtin the lad got off to a flying start, which suggests no less access a top fuel program, just sooner. Now, as far as the Tour is concerned, things appear basically to have evened out.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Sure but Saronni, who discovered Pog, just beat Jumbo to the punch a couple of years prior, by making sure immediately under Gianetti, San Milan and Maxtin the lad got off to a flying start, which suggests no less access a top fuel program, just sooner. Now, as far as the Tour is concerned, things appear basically to have evened out.

I actually added that sentence in the post. I still think that most talented guys get the program sooner.

 

[Extinction]

Well, when he distanced Pog on Ventoux in 2021there was a bunch of YouTube videos that sprung up as everyone was shocked. Then by the start of the 2022 TdF, the hype died down, I think most assumed that was an aberration and Pog was a strong favourite to "three peat". But then Granon and Hautacam happened, followed by that thermonuclear stage 20 TT. Remember, this was against Pogacar, the two time defending champion who did what we saw on La Planche des Belles Filles.

So, I have a very hard time thinking Vingegaard is any more credible than Chris Froome. And yet, here we are in 2023 and he is looking like he can do it again? There is no way Vingegaard is a greater talent than Pogacar - absolutely no way. I say he is a super responding creation.

Anyway, good to see the discussion is up to a level I would expect

Edit: Feel free to check the TdF betting markets in June 2021. Vingo had a good season but nothing to suggest what was about to happen.

He is different than Froome, as Vingo showed something other than 5th in an insignificant TT before aged 27. I just don't believe, moreover, Pog is any more credible in the environment where he emerged.

 

[Cookster15]

He is different than Froome, as Vingo showed something other than 5th in an insignificant TT before aged 27. I just don't believe, moreover, Pog is any more credible in the environment where he emerged.

I am perfectly fine with the bold. But I bumped this thread as nobody bothered posting since March 15 and yet we saw Itzulia. I guess I am pointing out forum bias towards and against certain riders.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Well, when he distanced Pog on Ventoux in 2021there was a bunch of YouTube videos that sprung up as everyone was shocked. Then by the start of the 2022 TdF, the hype died down, I think most assumed that was an aberration and Pog was a strong favourite to "three peat". But then Granon and Hautacam happened, followed by that thermonuclear stage 20 TT. Remember, this was against Pogacar, the two time defending champion who did what we saw on La Planche des Belles Filles.

So, I have a very hard time thinking Vingegaard is any more credible than Chris Froome. And yet, here we are in 2023 and he is looking like he can do it again? There is no way Vingegaard is a greater talent than Pogacar - absolutely no way. I say he is a super responding creation.

Anyway, good to see the discussion is up to a level I would expect

I'm not saying Vingegaard's performances from the 2021 Tour and beyond haven't been ridiculous, but the transformation had already begun before that. Froome turning into a GC rider overnight and Roglič becoming a godlike time trialist just in time for the 2016 Giro were as ridiculous as Samuel Sánchez doing a light version of Santi Pérez at the end of the 2007 Vuelta.

But at then end of the day I think I have to agree with Michael Rasmussen: If you pretty much have to dope anyway, then at least do it right and win.

 

[Extinction]

I actually added that sentence in the post. I still think that most talented guys get the program sooner.

First they need to be identified though. I just think it took a couple of years longer for Jumbo to discovery Vingegaard has huge potential (particularly for the Tour, which is the most controlled GT and so eccellent terrain to bring out the Dane's immense power to weight ratio). That Pog is a natural born racer, who can win on all terrains, only makes it seem like he's much more talented. But if we're going purely on watts to weight figures, I bet Vingegaard's numbers, and therefore potential at the Tour, are higher.

 

[Extinction]

I am perfectly fine with the bold. But I bumped this thread as nobody bothered posting since March 15 and yet we saw Itzulia. I guess I am pointing out forum bias towards and against certain riders.

I don't think it's necessarily bias, only that Pog in winning stage races and Flanders simply garners more attention, because it's so exceptional.

 

[Cookster15]

But if we're going purely on watts to weight figures, I bet Vingegaard's numbers, and therefore potential at the Tour, are higher.

Even after 2020 La Planche des Belles Filles ?

 

[Extinction]

Even after 2020 La Planche des Belles Filles ?

Possibly. That stage was at the end of the Tour when potentially you could have a sensational performance or conversely an awfull one, clearly what happened between Pog and Rog that day. It reminded me a bit of the difference between Lemond and Fignon on the last day of the 89 Tour. Fignon had mostly been better than Lemond in the mountains, but then Greg sensationally overhauled Laurent with incredible legs to the Frenchman's unexpected performance disaster.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

That Pog is a natural born racer, who can win on all terrains, only makes it seem like he's much more talented. But if we're going purely on watts to weight figures, I bet Vingegaard's numbers, and therefore potential at the Tour, are higher.

Sure, Vinge looks like the ultimate GT racer while Pog like the ultimate road cyclist. But I don't think Vinge's best Tour performances were better than Pog's PDBF and Le Grand Bornand.

 

[Extinction]

Sure, Vinge looks like the ultimate GT racer while Pog like the ultimate road cyclist. But I don't think Vinge's best Tour performances were better than Pog's PDBF and Le Grand Bornand.

Well I can't agree, because Granon was I believe superior. Only PDBF is compatible.

 

[Cookster15]

Well I can't agree, because Granon was I believe superior. Only PDBF is compatible.

Granon was thanks to Pog chasing Roglic and blowing himself up.