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Jonas Vingegaard Rasmussen, the new alpha mutant

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Maybe next time be clearer, since for the love of god that is not something one can understand out of your questions....



Both are history questions. one is irrelevant since it just tells something about the budget and resources of the le breton, the other is a plain history question which is answered by the link i gave you.
Read the post I was referring to with the questions? Don't bother replying.
 
Read the post I was referring to with the questions? Don't bother replying.

Sans compter l'évolution du matériel. "Au temps d'Armstrong, les vélos n'étaient même pas en carbone", rappelle-t-il.
(Not to mention the evolution of the material. "In Armstrong's time, bikes weren't even carbon," he recalls.)

You can measure how much of a joke is that Frédéric Grappe ! He claims any lies that fits his goal.
Everybody on this forum knows that carbon frames date back to the 80's and were well perfected within a few years.
I did , that was why my first reply was that lance his bikes were lower in weight than the bikes now and Lance actually had an advantage over the current riders instead of a dissadvantage as Grappe wanted to allude to.

But that answer was beside the question for you, so i gave you link that describes the history of carbon frames since that was what you asked. When did Armstrong and Co start riding carbon frames.

FYI: if you don't want others answering your questions, or people replying to your comments, maybe you shouldn't post them. More effective
 
That's complete BS. Well perfected? What was the first "well perfected" carbon frame set you ever had?

And what was the first year Lance & co races on carbon TT bikes?
This is pretty much the bike I saw Boardman riding in the Nyon-Geneva TT in 1997 (Tour de Romandie), 2 years before the pseudo TdF win of L.A.
Completely obsolete I guess ;).
 
This is pretty much the bike I saw Boardman riding in the Nyon-Geneva TT in 1997 (Tour de Romandie), 2 years before the pseudo TdF win of L.A.
Completely obsolete I guess ;).
Well perfected within a few years of being developed in the 80's. That's what I thought 🤔
 
Lance road bike was the lightest bike before they put the minimum of 6.8kg in place. (in 2003 his bike is reported to have weight 6.6kg which no bike in the current peleton will ever reach). TT bikes back than were up to 9kg, similar to today.
No idea how much carbon those bikes were, don't think it matters since its all about the weight.
Now they use the carbon for more Aero bikes while keeping the weight low, because of the weight limit. Otherwise we would see a lot lighter bikes in favor of aero on those multi mountain stages.
Not sure what year but one of the first years of the Madone it beat Lance up so badly he rode a Litespeed with Trek decals. I'd hardly call that perfected. I've been in the business 25 years and the early carbon bikes were ***.
 
The way they are going right now they are bound to break Pantanis records. What happens at that point will be interesting. But bar a successful criminal investigation I don't think this will stop any time soon. They are going to push each other to the limit of whatever they are applying.
It will also be interesting to who's gonna rise to the top all of a sudden, like Gall. Maybe the next Pantani isn't even Vingegaard. And looking at WvA performances I wonder if the heavy GT rider is gonna make a return to the scene.
I don't think someone "new" will appear in the next 3/4 years. It will be about vingegaard, pogacar, ayuso, and remco and maybe uijdtbroeks. They will smash all the records.
 
Nutrition, training, more altitude camps, aerodynamics. This explain some % of the improvement in the perfomances of the rider since 2020, but i'm not naive to think it’s just that. Clearly there's something more in the teams that don't belong MPCC. My feeling/my theory is that they are using legal doping or something that it's not yet illegal. Ketones and bicarbonat of sodium and others products that yet we don't know, can explain something.

I don't believe in EPO or blood transfusions in 2023.
 
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I wonder how this trend will continue.

*** will get really hilarious when they actually start breaking Pantanis records.

And then people will still claim it's clean because they're naive morons who like being lied to and I may have to force myself to never watch cycling again.
Since you mention not watching cycling again, is that what would push you away? An abundance of uneducated fans embracing fiction?

I missed quite a few episodes over the past few years. Missed most of Froome's, didn't see Thomas. Missed Roglic's "almost" and didn't catch any of Pog's. Who's this Bernal fella? :grinning:

I can't find the post where some incredulous individual questioned if somehow a team has stuff that all the others don't. It's a lot more dynamic than that but there is a trend. Telekom had 2 riders they won the Tour with (Riis, Ulle), throw an oddball Pantani in there to spoil it, and only because dope can only push so large of an ass up the mountain, Jan just plain overdid the partying. Then let Postal takeover for quite a spell.

Armstrong for a bunch, then his minion Floyd wins it the year after he retires, stripped of course but... Then those Disco boys had 1 & 3 on the podium, ya Contador and the bald fella, how funny is that! with Contador carrying that torch for many more years. Then all the sudden that Wiggins team discovers the hot sauce, who woulda thunk a track cyclist and TT'er could win a GT, let alone the Tour??

And if that ain't enough, his lieutenant can have a few while you're at it. By golly, if you don't think we can get any sillier, let's get that one day racer to win one too! Geraint Thomas TDF champ! Talk about silly!

And on and on it goes.

And for some reason my curiosity and excitement got aroused this year and I started with the classics and enjoyed it all the way up to that TT. My conclusion is that this sport just isn't designed for fans who investigate things. I'm not going to go to the extent to call them naive morons, because it's the same with every professional sport that I can think of. Cycling is just now getting around to not publishing all the infractions for the world to see, hence keeping them from pile driving their own sport and livelihood into the dirt. "Performance enhancers" are so commonplace these days, I don't see how we can keep the pros off the stuff. If so, they'd be weaker than your average geek off the street. Little Johnny can get hormone therapy as an adolescent if his pappy is worried about him being a runt. Now little Johnny is operating on ill begotten physical abilities that never were his and gets to enjoy them for the rest of his life. How do you stop that? I work with guys in their 30's that are being treated for "Low T." It's a new time, and only going to get harder to get guys to compete clean.

I don't think we'll see clean professional sport.
 
Nutrition, training, more altitude camps, aerodynamics. This explain some % of the improvement in the perfomances of the rider since 2020, but i'm not naive to think it’s just that. Clearly there's something more in the teams that don't belong MPCC. My feeling/my theory is that they are using legal doping or something that it's not yet illegal. Ketones and bicarbonat of sodium and others products that yet we don't know, can explain something.

I don't believe in EPO or blood transfusions in 2023.

I don't think ketones give boost to your bazooka, submaximal efforts (i.e. 15-30 minutes long), which Teddy and Vinnie were showing off. They perform different things, more like helping with recovery and preserving glicogene stores during longer efforts. Plus I don't believe at all nutrition, aerodynamics and other stuff changed dramatically since 2019 (maybe since 90s yes but not sharphy in recent years). They really have some rocket fuel here.
 
Whatever magic potion Jumbo have, it seems to be aimed at week 3 as the performance level does not seem to deteriorate. Zeeman said as much and Vingegaard's comments too about Pogacar shooting too much.
Even an idiot like me worked out that Jumbo would push Pogacar from stage 1 and wait for his lack of preparation to cause problems, but it seems Jumbo had something more up their sleeves for week 3.
 
Nutrition, training, more altitude camps, aerodynamics. This explain some % of the improvement in the perfomances of the rider since 2020, but i'm not naive to think it’s just that. Clearly there's something more in the teams that don't belong MPCC. My feeling/my theory is that they are using legal doping or something that it's not yet illegal. Ketones and bicarbonat of sodium and others products that yet we don't know, can explain something.

I don't believe in EPO or blood transfusions in 2023.
German doctor Mark Schmidt was sentenced to prison in 2021 for assisting in blood transfusions to prof cyclists and skiiers. It took a police investigation to catch the doping; the test system didn't detect it. So I think it's still widespread, and as we saw in the Armstrong case, the more ressources and the better organized you are, the less risk you'll have and the more you'll benefit.

I don't know about EPO, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's still there too. We know it was widespread years after the first EPO test was introduced around 2000. Danish rider Michael Rasmussen is an example. Not caught in the testsystem, but for messing up his whereabouts. Used EPO and blood transfusions - big time.

Then there's Sky. Neither Froome nor Wiggins convicted - but their team doctor lost his medical license because of doping an unnamed rider (testosterone), and they had Rabobank's old team doctor as a freelance consultant, now permanently banned from the sport (EPO, blood transfusions, etc).

So as I see it, the old good stuff is likely still there. And if Jumbo Visma are clean, that's the first time in the last 30+ years in the sport for a team of that level and dominance.
 
That Vayer would have a positive bias/attitude regarding Gaudu is probably because he knows his lab tests results ( VO2 Max = 92 ml/mn.kg like LeMond, Hinault or Péraud, well above Pinot in fact) and has seen his regular progress since a very early age.
On the other hand, if you read Vayer you will see that he is extremely critical of Alaphilippe for example (rightly so in my opinion).

Of course French cyclists are submitted to fairly strict set of tests (suivi longitudinal) which makes it more difficult to consider cheating than say in Slovenia or maybe in Riisland.

Vayer uses Gaudu as a "clean" benchmark, i.e. insinuating he'd win the Tour with all things being equal in the peloton.

And the reason he's got a hate-boner for Alaphilippe is because he rides for Quick-Step (a foreign team). I mean Vayer is right about a lot of clinical related stuff but at this juncture of the sport (i.e. as it is in 2023 with its ridiculous science-fiction performances), that's like saying someone is right when they say Santa Claus doesn't exist.

The doping is so obvious so of course one of the most vocal anti-doping voices is right about the 'big picture', no matter the power numbers. He's still a hypocrite though for crapping all over foreign teams & riders whilst elevating French teams & riders to saintly status.

Whatever magic potion Jumbo have, it seems to be aimed at week 3 as the performance level does not seem to deteriorate. Zeeman said as much and Vingegaard's comments too about Pogacar shooting too much.
Even an idiot like me worked out that Jumbo would push Pogacar from stage 1 and wait for his lack of preparation to cause problems, but it seems Jumbo had something more up their sleeves for week 3.

It's the normalization of the abnormal which is always jarring.

As I said last week, not a single commentator, data analyst, youtuber, blogger, vlogger, journalist, former pro, consultant, podcaster or whatever saw that ITT coming. There was no prediction of such a time gap over such a short distance.

So when I see the analysis of Jumbo's Tour tactics now implying there was some sort of 'logic' to what happened (like Pog's bad preparation exploded in his face in week 3), I can only shrug once again.

It's like people are constantly shooting in the dark attempting to make sense out of performances which make no sense.
 
It's the normalization of the abnormal which is always jarring.

As I said last week, not a single commentator, data analyst, youtuber, blogger, vlogger, journalist, former pro, consultant, podcaster or whatever saw that ITT coming. There was no prediction of such a time gap over such a short distance.

So when I see the analysis of Jumbo's Tour tactics now implying there was some sort of 'logic' to what happened (like Pog's bad preparation exploded in his face in week 3), I can only shrug once again.

It's like people are constantly shooting in the dark attempting to make sense out of performances which make no sense.
Pogacar went up the climb in the TT at about the same pace as Dumoulin in 2016, when it was also included in the TT. But Dumoulin still had to hold back because he had about twice the climbing to do. You only need to look at La Planche 2020 to conclude that a good Pogi can do a lot better.

Scepticism is healthy, certainly in cycling, and Vingegaard's performance in the time trial was clearly a statistical anomaly, but if Pogacar had any legs (plus the other things we've talked about, like the bike change and better cornering) he simply would have been a lot closer. No doubt about it.

I mean... he was not even that much faster than Pello Bilbao up that climb. Compare that to the rest of this Tour de France... that's not shooting in the dark, it's just hard facts.
 
There's an article in Eurosport in which Frédéric Grappe (head of performance at FDJ) says watts per kilo cannot be used as evidence of doping (because of variables & improved equipment since the 1990's) but the delta (actual seconds per km gains & average speed versus the rest) is a problem, i.e. according to him, if one of his riders did what Vingegaard did in the ITT, he'd be "ill at ease" & would ask serious questions: https://www.eurosport.fr/cyclisme/t...-de-dopage-en-question_sto9715289/story.shtml

He says the margin of victory goes beyond the margin of error of power calculations.


"Le Danois a en effet fait tomber ses records, indique Mathieu Heijboer, responsable de la performance de Jumbo-Visma. "C'était la meilleure journée de sa vie, il a développé plus de puissance que jamais auparavant mais n'a battu ses meilleures données que de 5 à 10 watts", assure-t-il, pour un effort estimé entre 450 et 500 watts."

^ So, according to Heijboer, the ITT was Vingegaard's best ever performance (by a mere 5 to 10 watts)

Didn't Vingegaard say that his power output was higher on other days / another day at the TDF?
 
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"Le Danois a en effet fait tomber ses records, indique Mathieu Heijboer, responsable de la performance de Jumbo-Visma. "C'était la meilleure journée de sa vie, il a développé plus de puissance que jamais auparavant mais n'a battu ses meilleures données que de 5 à 10 watts", assure-t-il, pour un effort estimé entre 450 et 500 watts."

^ So, according to Heijboer, the ITT was Vingegaard's best ever performance (by a mere 5 to 10 watts)

Didn't Vingegaard say that his power output was higher on other days / another day at the TDF?
So he basically improved his best performance by 0.16W/kg over 30min+ (or 13 if we only assume the end) in the beginning of the 3rd week in a hard GT, where they set records after records, ... on a TT bike.

(but this numbers seem of: 450-500W range would be 7.6~8.5W/kg for him. which is not something he should be able push for +7minutes)
 
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It's very likely that I am the last one to know that this is his favorite food, but as a Berliner I can assure you that daily consumption of a Dürüm is fully sufficient to explain the strength he has. I personally prefer Lahmacun as a "Wrap" but I never even won a bike race. How stark the difference between two foods so similar can be.
 
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From one of the Danish tabloids:
VINGEGAARD'S MOTHER TO POGACAR: 'HE HAS TO PREPARE BETTER'

"Vingegaard's mother has revealed the secret behind his success. It's about preparation. She emphasized in an interview how much work her son had put in prior to the TdF - but there was more than that. For while Pogacar spent the restday doing back-flips in the pool, Vingegaard was preparing his effort on the time trial, which turned out to be one of the Tour's most decisive stages. Vingegaard's mother was clear: 'If Pogacar had any ambition to win the race, he really should have prepared better'."

Vingegaard's mother: Pogacar has to prepare better