Jonas Vingegaard Rasmussen, the new alpha mutant

[ontheroad]

I'm not arguing he's clean, just that this shouldn't surprise anyone, looking at last years results.

It depends on your timeline used in judging a riders transformation. If a rider comes from nowhere to finish second in La Vuelta in September then goes on to win next years Tour then it’s not suspicious next July? Using your metric the 2013 version of Froome was not suspicious as he had been building form for 2 years.

Last year was Vingegaards big breakout performance but he’s refined and improved it this year so that the improvement appears more incremental.

We’ve all seen this movie before.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

TT is the least surprising. He was 3rd last years TDF TT's (in both time trials).
This year he is stronger and clearly was the freshest.

Could've probably won if he took some more risks

 

[Blobs]

It depends on your timeline used in judging a riders transformation. If a rider comes from nowhere to finish second in La Vuelta in September then goes on to win next years Tour then it’s not suspicious next July? Using your metric the 2013 version of Froome was not suspicious as he had been building form for 2 years.

Last year was Vingegaards big breakout performance but he’s refined and improved it this year so that the improvement appears more incremental.

We’ve all seen this movie before.

Like I said in the post you quoted: I'm not arguing he's clean.

 

[ontheroad]

TT is the least surprising. He was 3rd last years TDF TT's (in both time trials).
This year he is stronger and clearly was the freshest.

Could've probably won if he took some more risks

i would disagree with this. Basic physiology would decree that a <60kg rider should not be beating 75+kg specialists in a flat TT. That is even much more alarming than his climbing.

Similar with Van Aert, it is not his TT that is most alarming but rather his ability to drop pure climbers on HC mountains.

Comparisons using a 12 month time line are futile. Whatever programme they’re on didn’t just start 12 months ago. Last year just so happened to be his big breakout performance.

 

[topt]

damn, now I know what prevented me from going pro, I should be a fisherman; eh to late now.

 

[topt]

Pog lost less time to Vingegaard than last years final, so good news for him too. Still seems to be improving a little.

In seriousness though, relative to Pogacar, this performance was in line with last year.

more crap,Pog last year went easy

 

[Blobs]

more crap,Pog last year went easy

Last I saw you use the "more crap"-line it was followed by "we have seen how Jonas performs as team leader", implying he had no chance and you guessed he would lose the Tour by 5 minutes to Pog. Perhaps you are the one spewing crap? Worth considering.

 

[noob]

He can be both decent and uncomplicated and doped to the gills at the same time. That's the way I view and accept a good portion of pro athletes anyway, otherwise I wouldn't even bother with following sports anymore.

In a way yes

I hope I don't break forum rules here. And I shall probably regret my own honesty. Here goes:

In all honesty elite athletes would never be my kind of people either way. I don't have anything in common with someone like Vingegaard, apart from maybe adhd and a poker face. But that I share with lots of guys in the peleton

It's more like I look for the Armstrongs, the dark triad and red flags, and so far I see those in some riders that I am a fan of. For example despite admiring Wout beauty on a cx bike I would run far away from him in real life. He excudes an arrogance I associate with narcissism. Pog does as well to some extent. Even Almeida gives me red flags of a slightly different kind but still Jonas none, zero.

Roglic I feel like he's not the narcissistic kind but instead appears like someone chasing kicks, highs, and challenges like an addict. He appears like addicted to his own hormones. He does remind me of people who climb the highest most challenging most dangerous mountains and falls to an early death.

Meanwhile I really see no red flags with Jonas apart from extreme doping. He excudes innocence, gullibility and vulnerability.

(And my intuition, or rather life experience, tells me I am probably fooled by Jonas . )

 

[topt]

Last I saw you use the "more crap"-line it was followed by "we have seen how Jonas performs as team leader", implying he had no chance and you guessed he would lose the Tour by 5 minutes to Pog. Perhaps you are the one spewing crap? Worth considering.

well, sorry didnt know about the new "special stuff" Jumbo got.

 

[bill1109]

My gosh Worst Tour I have seen since 2012, I stopped watching after yesterday. I just can't take any more. And a thought should be spared for the forgotten one - poor Primoz Roglic. One day Primoz will realize he has been used and abused by Jumbo who found a new alpha mutant responder so they have thrown Roglic on the scrapheap. He won't ever win a Tour because they found a freak responder that means they don't need him anymore.

In that regard i.e., roglic I cannot disagree, as much as I enjoyed this tour I feel bad for roglic..won't even be there for the victory which I think he would have genuinely enjoyed. He gave a lot...this is a cruel sport in many ways. I get what you mean. But I tried to see past it. He has a strong character he will be fine. Seeing these young guys going at it and their good sportsmanship is nice to see. And wva , to me, is strongest rider. What a display. ..just not a GC rider

 

[Blobs]

well, sorry didnt know about the new "special stuff" Jumbo got.

No one knows what goes on behind the scenes, but we knew enough that a lot of people predicted this could happen. You disagreed and said it was crap, but it was you who was spewing crap.

 

[topt]

No one knows what goes on behind the scenes, but we knew enough that a lot of people predicted this could happen. You disagreed and said it was crap, but it was you who was spewing crap.

who predicted this will happen ? Fisherman winning by 4 min , would like to met the guy

 

[Rollthedice]

Ellingworth says this was the best Thomas, way better than when he won the Tour. Don't want to comment on the new trend when riders improve beyond 35 years of age but in this Tour he is more than 8 minutes from Vroomgegaard. That's more than Peraud was to Nibali in 2014. If we take out Teddy Merckx out of the equation this would have been something unseen since... when?

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Ellingworth says this was the best Thomas, way better than when he won the Tour. Don't want to comment on the new trend when riders improve beyond 35 years of age but in this Tour he is more than 8 minutes from Vroomgegaard. That's more than Peraud was to Nibali in 2014. If we take out Teddy Merckx out of the equation this would have been something unseen since... when?

Put Vingegard in the 2018 tour and he wins by 10 minutes? Runs circles around Froom, Dumoulin, Landa, Nibali, Kruijswijk.

I know it doesn't work like that but shows just how wtf the level is, also when WVA can beat this Thomas on Hautacam. Thomas at a higher level than when he won the Tour finished 8 minutes down and behind the green jersey on hautacam

 

[Blobs]

who predicted this will happen ? Fisherman winning by 4 min , would like to met the guy

People predicted he could drop Pog on the long climbs. It was surprising that Pog cracked so hard on Granon, so the time difference is surprisingly large obviously. If he doesn't crack that day and only loses 30 seconds like you would expect, he would be within a minute.

 

[Tery]

I remember once upon a time I thought being a Vingegaard fan was the least complicated, because he seemed like a perfectly decent uncomplicated guy.

How hilarious!

Uncomplicated guys don't have overly attached relationships with their wife and child, they are also like what 5% of people? Probably less.

Clinging to this childish ultra-overly simplicistic and optimistic approach to psychology (shared by almost everyone) causes the ever varying (but always near zero) awareness of doping and all other kind of cheating.

People rarely want to understand people, engaging in endless circular discussions (once again, a habit shared by almost everyone) serves the very purpose of understanding others less. It could be defined as a subtle form of doping one's idea of oneself and others through undetectable macrodoses of repetitive nonsense, but alas for this kind of doping there is no forum section.

 

[ciranda]

The German ES commentators had it in their voice, the way they prolongued the syllables in "like from another star...", "everyone can make up their own minds about these performances", "I had hoped that after these exploits he'd show some weakness finally", stuff like that. Still appreciative and only mixed in between... Of course I don't expect them to accuse someone by name, but obviously it's impossible to actually say "I don't know how these performances are possible."

Isn't that kind of stance the worst, though? Either say it out loud, write an editorial or whatever, or don't say it. These kind of claims can't be responded to by the ones attacked in a meaningful way.

Just read that Vingegaard wasn't supposed to be on the team for the 2021 tour. He replaced Dumoulin...

OK someone mentioned this already. He was supposed to do the Giro but then Dumoulin decided to stop or got injured, I forget. They had selected the team in march and after the good result in Itzulia Vingegaard was picked. It sucked because I wanted to see him race for himself in the Giro instead of being support in the Tour de France.

One more thing. Is he a skinny cyclist? No. Look at the lower legs and powerful thighs. It's very obvious in the pictures from the time trial and with the very low position and helps explain the great time trial qualities. His upper body with this weird hunchback does not look particularly skinny either. He is physically different than the tall stage race cyclists like Bardet, Vlasov, Arensman, Wiggins and so on and appears more muscular than guys of the same size such as Yates, Juan Pedro Lopez, Pidcock, Buchmann.

 

[Riek s]

Guess we are all wrong:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vingegaard-jumbo-visma-are-totally-clean-you-have-to-trust-us/

“We are totally clean, every one of us, and I can say that to every one of you,” Vingegaard said. “Not one of us is taking anything illegal. I think why we are so good is because of the preparation we do. We take altitude camps to the next level, and everything: materials, food and training. I think the team is really the best in this. That’s why you have to trust us.”

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Guess we are all wrong:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vingegaard-jumbo-visma-are-totally-clean-you-have-to-trust-us/

Lol the stuff about altitude camps. Victor Campanaerts was staying in an altitude hotel for 6 weeks this year, and trying to kill himself at 4700m altitude in lockdowns , just to flail around outside the top 20 in ronde van vlaanderen, cramp following remco and win a transition Giro stage.

Everyone trains at altitude, with the exception of some of the sprinters and classics guys. Bardet did 3 altitude camps this year. Astana riders are training at Teide.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Guess we are all wrong:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vingegaard-jumbo-visma-are-totally-clean-you-have-to-trust-us/

He's only saying they aren't doing anything illegal, but that doesn't mean they aren't doing things that will become illegal in the future.

Not that I believe him anyway.

 

[Cookster15]

TT is the least surprising. He was 3rd last years TDF TT's (in both time trials).
This year he is stronger and clearly was the freshest.

Could've probably won if he took some more risks

Again you make the mistake of comparing to last year. Last year was a meteoric rise from obscurity - just when Jumbo needed it when Roglic was out. I’m not buying it. Then look at him, he makes Froome look well fed.

Today was nearly a dead flat TT which is the least suitable for climbers. Yes I know at end of a GT it’s also about recovery but where do you get the power from when you weigh 60kg (Contador was 62Kg)? This is worse than Contador Annecy 2009. At least when AC beat Cancellara there was a climb.

 

[roundabout]

Isn't that kind of stance the worst, though? Either say it out loud, write an editorial or whatever, or don't say it. These kind of claims can't be responded to by the ones attacked in a meaningful way.

OK someone mentioned this already. He was supposed to do the Giro but then Dumoulin decided to stop or got injured, I forget. They had selected the team in march and after the good result in Itzulia Vingegaard was picked. It sucked because I wanted to see him race for himself in the Giro instead of being support in the Tour de France.

One more thing. Is he a skinny cyclist? No. Look at the lower legs and powerful thighs. It's very obvious in the pictures from the time trial and with the very low position and helps explain the great time trial qualities. His upper body with this weird hunchback does not look particularly skinny either. He is physically different than the tall stage race cyclists like Bardet, Vlasov, Arensman, Wiggins and so on and appears more muscular than guys of the same size such as Yates, Juan Pedro Lopez, Pidcock, Buchmann.

Source about Vingegaard doing the Giro?

Our line-up for the Giro and the Tour

Three weeks of racing in Italy, followed by three weeks across the beautiful country of France. These riders will race the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de…

www.teamjumbovisma.com

View: https://youtu.be/VwXbd-rntT4

 

[Cookster15]

Lol the stuff about altitude camps. Victor Campanaerts was staying in an altitude hotel for 6 weeks this year, and trying to kill himself at 4700m altitude in lockdowns , just to flail around outside the top 20 in ronde van vlaanderen, cramp following remco and win a transition Giro stage.

Everyone trains at altitude, with the exception of some of the sprinters and classics guys. Bardet did 3 altitude camps this year. Astana riders are training at Teide.

Yes that was lifted right out of the Armstrong book.

 

[ciranda]

Source about Vingegaard doing the Giro?

Our line-up for the Giro and the Tour

Three weeks of racing in Italy, followed by three weeks across the beautiful country of France. These riders will race the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de…

www.teamjumbovisma.com

View: https://youtu.be/VwXbd-rntT4

That's how I remembered it, maybe just cause I wanted him to race the Giro with a free role. Apologies. Does it change anything? After his good result in Itzulia he was selected to replace Dumoulin in TDF.

 

[BR2]

Isn't that kind of stance the worst, though? Either say it out loud, write an editorial or whatever, or don't say it. These kind of claims can't be responded to by the ones attacked in a meaningful way.

In a way, yes. But I guess for me as a viewer it's more satisfying than someone going on for hours how great and amazing and to worship this is. It's a feeling of "okay, at least I'm not being screwed over by the commentators as well".
For the cyclists, I don't know what they prefer. It's at least easier for them in the sense that they don't have to answer questions - and the viewer gets an atmosphere of normality, it's not like they are asking us to revolt against the riders.