Well however thermonuclear we know Wout was this TdF that just makes what Vingo just achieved even more unbelievable. I still can’t get my head around that final TT for a lightweight. He might have beaten Wout if he didn’t celebrate early?
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Well however thermonuclear we know Wout was this TdF that just makes what Vingo just achieved even more unbelievable. I still can’t get my head around that final TT for a lightweight. He might have beaten Wout if he didn’t celebrate early?
It was more than some performance. He could easily have beaten a thermonuclear WvA. A skeleton climber who few knew of before last year’s TdF. It’s right up there with Pantani’s TTs in 1998.Actually I don't think he celebrated too early. He gave it up to win the stage when he realized he wouldn't win and just celebrated his yellow jersey. But there was this moment when he took that corner too tight, and maybe that cost him already, maybe he was then told to take it slightly easier... It definitely was some performance anyway.
Way more allround muscular today than in that old tv segment.He was quoted as being 58 kg at his lightest in 2018. I don't know what he weights now, but he was very trimmed already at the start of the Tour, that much is clear. He has the same height as Contador, and their legs seem similarly muscular. So maybe he is a kg or two lighter?
Way more muscular legs today than in that old tv segment.
Does this individual look like someone who can be good in the time trials? Yeah for sure with the low aero position, powerful thighs, muscular lower legs, looks like a real specialist.
Does this individual look like someone who can be good in the time trials? Yeah for sure with the low aero position, powerful thighs, muscular lower legs, looks like a real specialist.
looks like a real specialist
Well however thermonuclear we know Wout was this TdF that just makes what Vingo just achieved even more unbelievable. I still can’t get my head around that final TT for a lightweight. He might have beaten Wout if he didn’t celebrate early?
Agree with your comments. Pantani and Birillo did similar during their feats. And as you say this suggests Vingo was holding back on the mountains.I already fully expected Vingo to win or podium the TT if he tried. The TT performances of Pog and Vingo the last 2 years have been arguably more suspect than their climbing performances, and not just PDBF.
Pog won that even flatter TT by half a minute over Wout last year and V even beat Wout as well. Just imagine seeing a rider like Vingegaard dropping Wout on the flats during a stage if he ever got a gap.
Neither of them, including Pogacar, have ever been world class at TTs outside of the tour, but during the tour they’re both in contention for the win on every TT. Vingegaard’s Tour TT results are 3, 3, 7, and 2, not bad for a guy who got 19th in the Danish TT championships a couple years ago, which shouldn’t be a race where you’re saving it to do domestique work.
You would think TTs are less affected by doping than climbing ability given the absolute wattage component but clearly that doesn’t seem to be the case. I agree if these guys can keep up with Wout and Ganna on the flats then they probably have even more capability than they’re showing in the mountains.
Yes, I still remember when Yates "learned" how to time trial all of a sudden. Amazing stuff, really.
I think regulations and changes of positions matter more for the difference between small and big riders than doping. Someone here has mentioned that the rules will be changed again next year, favouring taller riders.Is there a trend of smaller guys/climbers improving their TTs relative to larger guys? Remco, Yateses, Vingeaard, Pidcock. Also, Alaphilipe, Rog and Pog
If so, what doping might explain. I think some people think that larger guys seemed to benefit more from EPO - Mig, LA - and from weight loss - Mig, LA, Froome, Wiggins. Might there be something that helps small guys more than big now? If so, what?
If not, what else might explain it?
It might be as simple as focussing on TTs. Small guys typically see themselves as climbers and larger guys as TT specialists, and so they focus on what they're good at from an early age and get good at that. So there are a lot of gains to be made by actually focussing on TTing. Perhaps Evenepoel's TT-ing has made smaller riders realise they can do more in this respect. Plus general increase in professionalism.
Also, smaller guys might be better at improving their position on the bike once they focus on it. (As relatively physically stronger, less prone to injury)
Way more allround muscular today than in that old tv segment.
Does this individual look like someone who can be good in the time trials? Yeah for sure with the low aero position, powerful thighs, muscular lower legs, looks like a real specialist.
Does this individual look like someone who can be good in the time trials? Yeah for sure with the low aero position, powerful thighs, muscular lower legs, looks like a real specialist.
hm, so you are going with Armstrong was no worse of a doper than anybody else; if it is not important how much you dope and with what that we can also put Merckx high on doping list. We have seen fisherman "doping less" he is not as good. JV has some new stuff.Lol. That's an interesting assumption. May or may not be the case. Do you view this as a doping contest and what makes one the heavier doper? What if vingo is doping less has a great at response? In fact, what if the amount of doping is actually the opposite order of the podium ... G unit is literally a walking pharmacy, pogo is 75% chemically enhanced, and vingo is just topping up? I mean, there are quite a few permutations here, and it's all pretty laughable stuff at the top end isn't it?
You've not answered the questions, which I guess answers a different question.hm, so you are going with Armstrong was no worse of a doper than anybody else; if it is not important how much you dope and with what that we can also put Merckx high on doping list. We have seen fisherman "doping less" he is not as good. JV has some new stuff.
You've not answered the questions, which I guess answers a different question.
what makes one the heavier doper ? improvement from baseline
Two guys do the same Dope-X program and one has a larger response, would you say they were the heavier doper? Not really.
Also, for various reasons, people develop and peak at different ages even in the absence of doping.
Of course if you have a larger response you are a heavier doper.
I think pogo and vingo are both supercharged (and G as well). However, none of us know what pogo or vingo's "baseline" (if that is your term for undoped capacities) currently is. It sounds like you are just a fan of pogo and are a bit upset about him being beaten, possibly at his own game. There is nothing wrong with that of course. But to claim it is because vingo did more doping is pure assumption, especially given the nuclear capacities the entire podium has demonstrated. I cannot remember - were you complaining about doping in sport as much when pogo won the last two years? You are certainly reactive to claims that pogo could be doping (but not his results), and you are 100% reactive to vingo.what makes one the heavier doper ? improvement from baseline; is Pogacar a much better rider at baseline; hell yes.
If everybody( guys like Froome or Fisherman) can become a winner that is not a sport anymore , its a doping competition.
I agree with you about the podium. But I think Armstrong showed us that some respond better than others. Vingo is like Armstrong in that regard. No we don't know Pogo's baseline but his record suggests genuine talent doping or not. I don't see that in Vingo - 22nd out 57 in the 2019 Dutch TT titles? Pog was always good. If Vingo was getting the same outrage here as Froome it would be fair. But he isn't. The problem for me is the obvious arms race.I think pogo and vingo are both supercharged (and G as well). However, none of us know what pogo or vingo's "baseline" (if that is your term for undoped capacities) currently is. It sounds like you are just a fan of pogo and are a bit upset about him being beaten, possibly at his own game. There is nothing wrong with that of course. But to claim it is because vingo did more doping is pure assumption, especially given the nuclear capacities the entire podium has demonstrated. I cannot remember - were you complaining about doping in sport as much when pogo won the last two years? You are certainly reactive to claims that pogo could be doping (but not his results), and you are 100% reactive to vingo.
Pick better examples and riders to compare him with. You can be justifiably outraged without the need to stoop so low.I don't see that in Vingo - 22nd out 57 in the 2019 Dutch TT titles? Pog was always good. If Vingo was getting the same outrage here as Froome it would be fair. But he isn't.
How did I stoop low? Didn't you start this thread - "alpha mutant"? That TT result is a fact and I am merely restating the recent article in CN.Pick better examples and riders to compare him with. You can be justifiably outraged without the need to stoop so low.
Pharmstrong was not just about being a better responder. He and his team set up a sophisticated system with the foremost expert in the world on the matter, demonstrating that I will set up system can indeed reap rewards and it's not just about more dope. But my response was to a poster who seems to only be upset with one rider and who seems to be sensitive about (and perhaps wants to give a pass to) a rider he is a fan of, which just seems silly.I agree with you about the podium. But I think Armstrong showed us that some respond better than others. Vingo is like Armstrong in that regard. No we don't know Pogo's baseline but his record suggests genuine talent doping or not. I don't see that in Vingo - 22nd out 57 in the 2019 Dutch TT titles? Pog was always good. If Vingo was getting the same outrage here as Froome it would be fair. But he isn't. The problem for me is the obvious arms race.