Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard: The Wizard of Visma

[RedheadDane]

@RedheadDane

Why are you discussing about Jonas in this thread?

I just felt like this was the right place... but... I can go talk about him in the Roglic thread.

 

[tobydawq]

I just felt like this was the right place... but... I can go talk about him in the Roglic thread.

Or the Degenkolb thread to spice things up.

 

[Andy schleck]

There are a lot of angles to this discussion but in the end i feel that Roglič wants to win the Giro. And it's as simple as that. Considering there is a lot of ITT involved at Giro 2023. It's a good opportunity.

As for Vingegaard he really doesn't have much other choices then to be JV leader at Tour 2023. And it's not like he is objecting to it.

As for Roglič and Tour 2023. Here i feel that things are still rather open.

We'll see.

Vingegaard has the numbers to beat pogacar, and jumbo obviously knows that. Merijn zeeman already hinted that.
If jumbo thought that vingegaard can't alone beat pogacar, they would put roglic at the tour. The story that roglic doesn't go to the tour because he will not be the main leader....i don't think it's true. Simply, jumbo wants to win all grand tours.

Roglic and vingegaard could perfectly coexist as main liders at the tour, and let the road decide who is "the leader". Just like a lot of teams do. A lot of teams take more than one leader to grand tours.


Pogacar is the most complete rider in the world, but that doesn't mean that vingegaard can't beat him in july. There's no cobbles in july, the tour is not decided in the sprints, the tour is not decided in short climbs.
The tour is decided in long climbs, in the TTs, in recovering well in the third week. Vingegaard can beat him in this parameters.

 

[Valv.Piti]

There are a lot of angles to this discussion but in the end i feel that Roglič wants to win the Giro. And it's as simple as that. Considering there is a lot of ITT involved at Giro 2023. It's a good opportunity.

As for Vingegaard he really doesn't have much other choices then to be JV leader at Tour 2023. And it's not like he is objecting to it.

As for Roglič and Tour 2023. Here i feel that things are still rather open.

We'll see.

What the...

 

[Red Rick]

What the...

Imagine the hilarity if both Jonas and Primoz wanted to do the Giro but Richard Plugge has to tell Jonas he can't do the Giro because he has to win the Tour for Jumbo again

Meanwhile Vingegaard is only signed through 2024 and I can't see any news about talks for an extension, and with Jumbo tapping out I wonder if other teams won't be throwing a big, fat stack of money on Vingegaard soon

 

[SHAD0W93]

Meanwhile Vingegaard is only signed through 2024 and I can't see any news about talks for an extension, and with Jumbo tapping out I wonder if other teams won't be throwing a big, fat stack of money on Vingegaard soon

Vinge to UAE, Ineos, or Israel confirmed.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Imagine the hilarity if both Jonas and Primoz wanted to do the Giro but Richard Plugge has to tell Jonas he can't do the Giro because he has to win the Tour for Jumbo again

Meanwhile Vingegaard is only signed through 2024 and I can't see any news about talks for an extension, and with Jumbo tapping out I wonder if other teams won't be throwing a big, fat stack of money on Vingegaard soon

I dno brother, acting as if Roglic somehow has 1st priority on Visma and as if Vingegaard wouldn't want to go the Tour as defending champion. Somehow the guy got it upside down, but it was a funny post.

Vingegaard strikes me as the guy that just wants to sign to just stay put almost no matter what, I dont really expect him leaving at all.

 

[Rackham]

I dno brother, acting as if Roglic somehow has 1st priority on Visma and as if Vingegaard wouldn't want to go the Tour as defending champion. Somehow the guy got it upside down, but it was a funny post.

Vingegaard strikes me as the guy that just wants to sign to just stay put almost no matter what, I dont really expect him leaving at all.

Jumbo is very open about the contract situation of the riders, i.e. you can literally go & have a look on the team's website & they say who is contracted to when. It's just a small detail I find amusing in an often cloak & dagger business where stuff is hidden away.

Point being: Jonas Vingegaard's manager is also his girlfriend (are they married? I have no idea). In any case she's the mother of his kid. It means she's the one managing his future as well.

Now in my opinion Vingegaard's contract situation needs resolving soon, i.e. for me it's surprising he wasn't extended after winning the TdF (a pay rise with a long contract would be the usual policy for such a rider after that performance because he must be on the lowest salary a TdF winner has been on in a very long time). It's also worth noting Jumbo seem to have a sort of unspoken salary cap of sorts because both Wout van Aert & Rog are on a reported 2 million euros + pennies a year & have been for a while, irrespective of their victories.

In my opinion Red Rick is absolutely right because there's a pretty big "Ineos will soon be coming for Vingegaard" signpost over his 2024 contract expiration date. They wanted Pog. They wanted Rog. They were prepared to drop quite a few millions for those riders so we can guess they'll give Vingegaard a TdF winner salary.

Ineos would be my bet if he doesn't sign with Jumbo (or whomever is their next sponsor).

 

[Andy schleck]

Jumbo is very open about the contract situation of the riders, i.e. you can literally go & have a look on the team's website & they say who is contracted to when. It's just a small detail I find amusing in an often cloak & dagger business where stuff is hidden away.

Point being: Jonas Vingegaard's manager is also his girlfriend (are they married? I have no idea). In any case she's the mother of his kid. It means she's the one managing his future as well.

Now in my opinion Vingegaard's contract situation needs resolving soon, i.e. for me it's surprising he wasn't extended after winning the TdF (a pay rise with a long contract would be the usual policy for such a rider after that performance because he must be on the lowest salary a TdF winner has been on in a very long time). It's also worth noting Jumbo seem to have a sort of unspoken salary cap of sorts because both Wout van Aert & Rog are on a reported 2 million euros + pennies a year & have been for a while, irrespective of their victories.

In my opinion Red Rick is absolutely right because there's a pretty big "Ineos will soon be coming for Vingegaard" signpost over his 2024 contract expiration date. They wanted Pog. They wanted Rog. They were prepared to drop quite a few millions for those riders so we can guess they'll give Vingegaard a TdF winner salary.

Ineos would be my bet if he doesn't sign with Jumbo (or whomever is their next sponsor).

That's a great opportunity for ineos.
Bora could also try something.

 

[Berniece]

This was probably asked already, but why isn't he riding the classics? In this form I would expect him to be able to win Liege

 

[KZD]

This was probably asked already, but why isn't he riding the classics? In this form I would expect him to be able to win Liege

It was not originally planned and he didn't show yet to have the engine required to win a +250km race like Liège especially against Pogi and Remco.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Andy schleck

The road will tell.

 

[Netserk]

Vingegaard will likely never do better in one-day races than what Contador could do, and last year he failed there pretty spectacularly. So focussing only on stage races in the spring makes good sense.

 

[Red Rick]

Vingegaard will likely never do better in one-day races than what Contador could do, and last year he failed there pretty spectacularly. So focussing only on stage races in the spring makes good sense.

Contador never raced a good Lombardia route. And I think Vingegaard just blew himself up on Civiglio.

I'd like for him to give the Italian fall classics a bigger shot this year since he's unlikely to do the Vuelta anyway.

 

[Netserk]

Agreed with that. Contador was also really good in the Ardennes in 2010, but one-day races was just not his comparative advantage, and I think it makes sense to only prepare for them after the Tour. I think the 2012 route was good enough if he was good enough. Villa Vergano was 3.25 km at 7.4 % with the last km at 11.7 %. And he certainly should have ridden the 2016 edition if he had enough gas left in the tank. Not racing after the 2009 Tour was also a wasted opportunity, but I just don't think his one-day pedigree justified racing much more than he did.

And in time, I both hope and think that Vingegaard will usually do two GTs each season, just like Contador. If he can be competitive in spring stage races as well, that's more than enough racing for a season.

 

[theyoungest]

Jumbo is very open about the contract situation of the riders, i.e. you can literally go & have a look on the team's website & they say who is contracted to when. It's just a small detail I find amusing in an often cloak & dagger business where stuff is hidden away.

Point being: Jonas Vingegaard's manager is also his girlfriend (are they married? I have no idea). In any case she's the mother of his kid. It means she's the one managing his future as well.

Now in my opinion Vingegaard's contract situation needs resolving soon, i.e. for me it's surprising he wasn't extended after winning the TdF (a pay rise with a long contract would be the usual policy for such a rider after that performance because he must be on the lowest salary a TdF winner has been on in a very long time). It's also worth noting Jumbo seem to have a sort of unspoken salary cap of sorts because both Wout van Aert & Rog are on a reported 2 million euros + pennies a year & have been for a while, irrespective of their victories.

In my opinion Red Rick is absolutely right because there's a pretty big "Ineos will soon be coming for Vingegaard" signpost over his 2024 contract expiration date. They wanted Pog. They wanted Rog. They were prepared to drop quite a few millions for those riders so we can guess they'll give Vingegaard a TdF winner salary.

Ineos would be my bet if he doesn't sign with Jumbo (or whomever is their next sponsor).

I don't think it's a salary cap as much as they just don't have the money to offer the kind of contracts UAE or Ineos do. They do have the advantage that they created the circumstances for these riders to perform in, and it always remains a question whether they will be able to do so on other teams. Their trainers are connected to Jumbo and won't be allowed to work with them anymore if they leave.

Vingegaard and his wife have an interesting relationship, she's quite a few years older and seems to act almost as a custodian or a kind of mentor. I'm sure she knows what she's doing and understands that there's no real need for him to sign a renewal with Jumbo right now. The only reason would be that he doesn't like uncertainty about his future.

 

[Red Rick]

Agreed with that. Contador was also really good in the Ardennes in 2010, but one-day races was just not his comparative advantage, and I think it makes sense to only prepare for them after the Tour. I think the 2012 route was good enough if he was good enough. Villa Vergano was 3.25 km at 7.4 % with the last km at 11.7 %. And he certainly should have ridden the 2016 edition if he had enough gas left in the tank. Not racing after the 2009 Tour was also a wasted opportunity, but I just don't think his one-day pedigree justified racing much more than he did.

And in time, I both hope and think that Vingegaard will usually do two GTs each season, just like Contador. If he can be competitive in spring stage races as well, that's more than enough racing for a season.

The weakness of some top GC riders in one day races is honestly one of the few things I don't really understand. For the pure climbers like Quintana, yes it's easy to see how 4 minute hill repeats doesn't suit them that much, but I don't think that argument ever made that much sense for Contador and Froome.

I do believe both basically never learnt how to prepare for one day races, and they never periodized to a monument properly.

 

[Netserk]

I think positioning and moving around in the bunch, and thus how to save energy for the finale, is different in one-day races and stage races. Froome is the obvious example, but Porte as well. But indeed mostly that it requires a different preparation, and it's much simpler to only hone your stage-race training.

 

[Gigs_98]

I don't think it's a salary cap as much as they just don't have the money to offer the kind of contracts UAE or Ineos do. They do have the advantage that they created the circumstances for these riders to perform in, and it always remains a question whether they will be able to do so on other teams. Their trainers are connected to Jumbo and won't be allowed to work with them anymore if they leave.

Vingegaard and his wife have an interesting relationship, she's quite a few years older and seems to act almost as a custodian or a kind of mentor. I'm sure she knows what she's doing and understands that there's no real need for him to sign a renewal with Jumbo right now. The only reason would be that he doesn't like uncertainty about his future.

It's honestly crazy Jumbo managed to sign Vingegaard, Roglic and Van Aert, all when their stock was still (somewhat) low. They've been so successful in recent years that it's easy to forget they aren't there becaues they have by far the deepest pockets. I'm not a huge fan of Jumbo, but man, their management really did one hell of a job.

 

[Red Rick]

I think positioning and moving around in the bunch, and thus how to save energy for the finale, is different in one-day races and stage races. Froome is the obvious example, but Porte as well. But indeed mostly that it requires a different preparation, and it's much simpler to only hone your stage-race training.

I don't buy positioning is that complicated in a race like Lombardia. You push once to be in the front for Ghisallo + Sormano and that's that. Liege is probably more complicated, but I still don't buy that's the defining factor for these races that are quite sleepy until a pretty obvious point in the race.

 

[Red Rick]

It's honestly crazy Jumbo managed to sign Vingegaard, Roglic and Van Aert, all when their stock was still (somewhat) low. They've been so successful in recent years that it's easy to forget they aren't there becaues they have by far the deepest pockets. I'm not a huge fan of Jumbo, but man, their management really did one hell of a job.

IIRC they got Roglic because another transfer fell through at the end of 2015, so they had some budget left for a cheap signing, and then via via someone recommended they test Roglic and he blew up the testing room in off-season form.

 

[frisenfruitig]

I don't buy positioning is that complicated in a race like Lombardia. You push once to be in the front for Ghisallo + Sormano and that's that. Liege is probably more complicated, but I still don't buy that's the defining factor for these races that are quite sleepy until a pretty obvious point in the race.

Yeah and it's not like you don't have to do the exact same thing in TDF stages, positioning is always a factor. I think the biggest difference is probably the fact that in a one day race everyone is 100% fresh which is apparently a big problem for guys like Vingegaard.

 

[Boehmand]

So Pogačar now has issues at the end of GTs? And JV just has to wait it out? Well, about that.

We'll see.

"Issues" is putting it too strongly, we are talking details of 2 very evenly matched world class GT riders here.

But yes, in the last week of the race Vingegaard has been stronger, both in 21 and 22, so it is clearly a trend.

 

[Boehmand]

If Roglič goes to the TdF he'll win it. It would be so Rogla to pull off an unlikely victory against all odds. Nibali 2014 style but even more dramatic.

Sure, if the two major favourites crash out like in 2014, Roglic will win

 

[Boehmand]

Team has said that Roglic "normally does not ride the Tour". To me that means if he's healthy and in shape going into the Giro, doesn't crash and finishes properly, no matter the result, he doesn't race the Tour.

I don't really see why Roglic would even want to.

Because as usual, Roglic will crash out in the first week of the Giro