Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Extinction]

Oh, I don’t dismiss any of that, just as it wasn’t clear who on the team was actually riding for the win, nor that (Discovery) Astana could control the Giro.

And the Tour was all that was needed in that era for US media and sponsorship.

I didn't think you dismissed any of that. My original comment took umbrage with Armstrong say the Giro is "Pop Warner" compared to the Tour. It is not, but the second biggest GT in the sport. He only had eyes for the Tour, for the reason you indicated, and he should have realized the double was evidently beyond him. Precisely because the Giro is so tough and definitely not "Pop Warner."

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I didn't think you dismissed any of that. My original comment took umbrage with Armstrong say the Giro is "Pop Warner" compared to the Tour. It is not, but the second biggest GT in the sport. He only had eyes for the Tour, for the reason you indicated, and he should have realized the double was evidently beyond him. Precisely because the Giro is so tough and definitely not "Pop Warner."

Armstrong was really about 1 race per year, it was much easier mentally. I mean, after the Tour he kinda hibernated. Preparing for two GTs was something he really didn't want to do, I think (how much it was about his physical abilities or one goal approach, I don't know). He definitely didn't think it was easy as he never attempted it in his prime.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I haven't seen anything he has done at the Giro so far as an indication that he's going to be worse at the Tour this year. Of course there's not much pointing to the opposite either, but I hadn't expected he would drop his best ever numbers on Blockhaus anyway.

There's obviously a chance that Visma have been over confident following his first races this season and Almeida's withdrawal meaning that he's slightly weaker than he could/would have been otherwise, but then we haven't yet seen that anyone will be able to take advantage of it and dethrone him.

If Seixas or someone else is really able to challenge him for second in the Tour, it could also mean his odds of winning it will actually improve. Whether he finishes second or third doesn't really matter that much, unless he fails to win the Giro, or the Tour win gets reallocated for some reason in the future, which I doubt will happen. If Pogačar doesn't start or finish the race, then it would naturally be a different situation, but being in the top 2 or 3 for five seasons or more is not a bad run, especially not if you can keep winning in the other GTs.

 

[hayneplane]

He never even did the Giro until
his comeback. Not once did he attempt the Giro-Tour double during his prime years. The point is Armstrong's dismissiveness towards the Giro was only meant to make his Tour wins that much more epic. The reality is that the Giro is second only to the Tour in GT prestige and it's hard as hell to win.

The Giro was basically an Italian national stage racing championship for the entire Armstrong era. From 1997 to 2007 the Italians won their home tour every year until Contador broke the spell. They then had a strong decade still but barren since Nibali last won in 2016

None of the Italian Giro podium finishers in the Armstrong TDF domination era ever finished top 10 in the tour in that timeframe.

 

[aphronesis]

The Giro was basically an Italian national stage racing championship for the entire Armstrong era. From 1997 to 2007 the Italians won their home tour every year until Contador broke the spell. They then had a strong decade still but barren since Nibali last won in 2016

None of the Italian Giro podium finishers in the Armstrong TDF domination era ever finished top 10 in the tour in that timeframe.

Basso?

 

[Oldman]

Armstrong was really about 1 race per year, it was much easier mentally. I mean, after the Tour he kinda hibernated. Preparing for two GTs was something he really didn't want to do, I think (how much it was about his physical abilities or one goal approach, I don't know). He definitely didn't think it was easy as he never attempted it in his prime.

Armstrong enjoyed a special relationship with the Tour organizers (he and Tom Weisel wanted to buy the promotional organization) and the UCI as the biggest show pony. The level of scrutiny back then was at a fairly low point so his preparation didn't suffer from much (any) oversight for the race. Why risk the reputation doing other events and not being quite as successful? It was about fame and power and he had the world enthralled. Then he came back and things, er...changed.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Basso?

Good point I loved Basso but he didn't win the Giro until 2006

 

[aphronesis]

Good point I loved Basso but he didn't win the Giro until 2006

Since he podiumed the Tour before that, I’d say the argument could be made.

 

[SHAD0W93]

The Giro was basically an Italian national stage racing championship for the entire Armstrong era. From 1997 to 2007 the Italians won their home tour every year until Contador broke the spell. They then had a strong decade still but barren since Nibali last won in 2016

None of the Italian Giro podium finishers in the Armstrong TDF domination era ever finished top 10 in the tour in that timeframe.

None of the Italian riders really cared about the Tour. Most riding it after already doing the Giro.

 

[Vinther1991]

The Giro was basically an Italian national stage racing championship for the entire Armstrong era. From 1997 to 2007 the Italians won their home tour every year until Contador broke the spell. They then had a strong decade still but barren since Nibali last won in 2016

None of the Italian Giro podium finishers in the Armstrong TDF domination era ever finished top 10 in the tour in that timeframe.

Hamilton was 2nd in 2002 Giro and 4th 2003 Tour

 

[Netserk]

Hamilton was 2nd in 2002 Giro and 4th 2003 Tour

hes not italian

 

[hayneplane]

I wo

None of the Italian riders really cared about the Tour. Most riding it after already doing the Giro.

I would say that was more a product of not being good enough. Pantani managed it but the others didn’t even come close. They were small fish in a tiny pond with the Giro in that era when all the top guys did the Tour every year unlike the last 20 years or so.

 

[Cookster15]

None of the Italian riders really cared about the Tour. Most riding it after already doing the Giro.

I do recall Gilberto Simoni talking up his chances of winning the Tour in 2003.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I do recall Gilberto Simoni talking up his chances of winning the Tour in 2003.

After stellar Giro 2003 Simoni was very subpar at the Tour but won one stage. Their biggest duel was Tour of Switzerland in 2001: Armstrong was just before his peak while Simoni likely past his (after Giro victory). On col du Gotthard finish Simoni (a 3 other guys) beat Armstrong by 37'' but Armstrong took a monster revenge during Crans Montana MTT (beating Simoni by 1'25'' and others by even bigger margins).

 

[SHAD0W93]

I would say that was more a product of not being good enough. Pantani managed it but the others didn’t even come close. They were small fish in a tiny pond with the Giro in that era when all the top guys did the Tour every year unlike the last 20 years or so.

Garzelli, Simoni, and Salvoldelli could have top 10’d or better at the Tour if they focused on it. Their biggest handicap would have been all of the TT miles. Though some of those Giros had long TTs as well.

 

[Kopfsteinpflaster]

I do recall Gilberto Simoni talking up his chances of winning the Tour in 2003.

To be fair, he only missed it by 2 hours 35 minutes and 47 seconds.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I do recall Gilberto Simoni talking up his chances of winning the Tour in 2003.

Just because he talked it up doesn’t mean he couldn’t better after having already did the Giro and winning it.


Other riders who got 1st in Giro and then their subsequent Tour result:
Menchov 51st
Basso 31st
Contador 5th x2
Nibali 30th
Froome 3rd
Pogacar 1st
Simon 15th

Heck 2010 Evans and Sastre both were hyping up their Tour attempt as well.

 

[Cookster15]

Just because he talked it up doesn’t mean he couldn’t better after having already did the Giro and winning it.


Other riders who got 1st in Giro and then their subsequent Tour result:
Menchov 51st
Basso 31st
Contador 5th x2
Nibali 30th
Froome 3rd
Pogacar 1st
Simon 15th

Heck 2010 Evans and Sastre both were hyping up their Tour attempt as well.

Yes, but we said none of the Italian riders cared about the Tour after riding the Giro. Obviously Simone did.

Evans rode the 2010 Giro as an experiment to see if it might bring him to the Tour at a higher level. It didn’t work out but didn’t help that he broke his arm either.

But your list just reminds how hard the Giro/Tour double is. Will be good to see how Vingegaard does this year assuming he wins the Giro.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yes, but we said none of the Italian riders cared about the Tour after riding the Giro. Obviously Simone did.

None cared enough to only ride the Tour in a year, which was at least my point in saying they rode it after the Giro.

Evans definitely could have finished better without the break but low top 10 at best.

 

[Extinction]

The Giro was basically an Italian national stage racing championship for the entire Armstrong era. From 1997 to 2007 the Italians won their home tour every year until Contador broke the spell. They then had a strong decade still but barren since Nibali last won in 2016

None of the Italian Giro podium finishers in the Armstrong TDF domination era ever finished top 10 in the tour in that timeframe.

What matters is the prevailing thought was the Giro-Tour double was beyond "modern cycling." This relegated the Giro to a "national event," but it still was the Giro and, as such, not worth risking the Tour, which says a lot. And they moved the Vuelta, making it the "less risky" to do, either as a testing ground or as a second GT after the Tour. Armstrong only cared for the US audience, which only thought, or even knew, of the Tour. But the culture of the sport knows otherwise. Now we have riders again going for the double, who were always very rare talents. Armstrong was not among them.

 

[Netserk]

der har været en del sygdom i feltet , er det noget der bekymrer jer ?
- ja , men det er klart at der har været en del i feltet , og man kan godt mærke at der er mange der har haft noget så det er helt klart noget man skal være påpasselig med

er det noget i har haft inde på jeres hold ?
- ja vi har haft lidt ja , men det er allerede i bedring så det er ikke noget der er galt , ikke noget der har forhindret os i noget

du er okay , du har det helt fint ?
- nej jeg har også haft lidt men det var allerede inden hviledagen så det er allerede bag mig

så du er i bedring , det er godt at høre
- det er langt bedre nu end det har været

doesnt sound like the little illness has bothered him at all

 

[Valv.Piti]

Sounds like 10-15 sec in the ITT

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

If Vingegaard had had the accident that Pogacar had in the Tour, Visma and his entourage would have been bringing it up throughout the entire Tour.

 

[theyoungest]

If Vingegaard had had the accident that Pogacar had in the Tour, Visma and his entourage would have been bringing it up throughout the entire Tour.

Vingegaard has had multiple crashes in the Tour, including in the yellow jersey. The reason you don't know that (or forgot about it) is that he's not exactly the complaining type.

 

[Rackham]

Vingegaard has had multiple crashes in the Tour, including in the yellow jersey. The reason you don't know that (or forgot about it) is that he's not exactly the complaining type.

He lets Trine do his complaining for him amirite.