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Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Mountain Sprinter

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Which thread title(s) do you prefer? (you may submit your own)

  • The Chicken who eats Riis for breakfast

    Votes: 32 33.3%
  • When they go low, Vingo high

    Votes: 6 6.3%
  • Wings of Love

    Votes: 8 8.3%
  • The Fishman Cometh

    Votes: 14 14.6%
  • The Mysterious Vingegaard Society

    Votes: 12 12.5%
  • Vingo Star

    Votes: 15 15.6%
  • The Jonas Vingegaard Discussion Thread

    Votes: 29 30.2%
  • Vingegaard vs Roglič

    Votes: 6 6.3%

  • Total voters
    96
  • Poll closed .
Guy is a pretty honest and very decent human being. I always believed him to actually not race for the win on those stages, necessarily at least, but mainly for stages. Stage 16 just spiraled a bit out of control, but that really wasn't in his control that UAE raced liked brainless chickens. He just raced to the line as everyone else woulda. I think he's perfectly fine 'donating' this win to Sepp, especially given he has shown to be the overall best rider through 3 weeks IMO.

Roglic is a completely different matter though. I don't think he's happy with this at all, but thats pure speculation on my part tbh, and I don't think their relation is great at all.
Agreed for the first part, but I think the same applies to Rogla. He was also fine with Kuss winning the race. He wasn't fine with not being afforded the same freedom as Vingegaard, and unable to race him for 2nd.
 
He did attack when his teammate was in leaders jersey and when there was a possibility he cracks as a consequence of this attack. Whether you call that direct or indirect attack will not affect the outcome and true intention can probably only be speculated about. I’m convinced he was trying to create a situation where he could take red from Kuss but I’ll admit, I have no proof for that. It’s not impossible he was not going for that.

Contrary to many who claim this is an established tactics, I’m saying it’s not and I’m challenging those to provide an example from history where attacking when your teammate is in leaders jersey (and there’s a fair chance you might take it) went through without controversy.

I may have gone too far calling him a manipulative liar. I didn’t have enough basis for that and I’m open to change my mind about his character if he aligns his words with his actions in the future.

It’s also possible he just went for it in the heat of the battle where his instinct kicked in and privately he’s still a decent person…
The three have talked about it, before, during and after. What they said to each other, we will never know.
We can just observe and draw our own conclusions.
One way to look at it, Jonas was tasked to increase the gap to Ayuso et al. In case Kuss should be parked by them.
 
Agreed for the first part, but I think the same applies to Rogla. He was also fine with Kuss winning the race. He wasn't fine with not being afforded the same freedom as Vingegaard, and unable to race him for 2nd.
Yeah, it's perfectly possible for Vingegaard and Roglic to be unhappy for their own result while simultaneously being really happy for Kuss.
 
The conflict going on within Jumbo has very little to do with the Vuelta and everything to do with Primoz wanting to be a co-leader in next years tour. His "defiance" has nothing to do with Kuss and everything to do with team management. I completely understand Primoz's point of view. He has earned the right to once again be the leader at the TDF.

On the other hand, Vinge has won the TDF two years in a row. I don't believe he should have to share leadership. He has earned the right to have a team fully dedicated to him for the Tour.

The only solution I see for Primoz is to leave to a team so he can be the exclusive leader. Jumbo should let him go without penalty. Otherwise, team cohesion at Jumbo next year is going to be horrific.
 
The conflict going on within Jumbo has very little to do with the Vuelta and everything to do with Primoz wanting to be a co-leader in next years tour. His "defiance" has nothing to do with Kuss and everything to do with team management. I completely understand Primoz's point of view. He has earned the right to once again be the leader at the TDF.

On the other hand, Vinge has won the TDF two years in a row. I don't believe he should have to share leadership. He has earned the right to have a team fully dedicated to him for the Tour.

The only solution I see for Primoz is to leave to a team so he can be the exclusive leader. Jumbo should let him go without penalty. Otherwise, team cohesion at Jumbo next year is going to be horrific.
I suspect even if they would let Roglic enter next TdF as a co-leader, it would be over quite quickly. Like on the first stage where Vingo decides to do serious business.
Maybe he can join Soudal Qick Step and be co-leader with Evenepoel?
 
I suspect even if they would let Roglic enter next TdF as a co-leader, it would be over quite quickly. Like on the first stage where Vingo decides to do serious business.
Maybe he can join Soudal Qick Step and be co-leader with Evenepoel?
I think that would be a bad choice of destinations ... unless you want to see those two groups of fans really mix it up. :p
 
The conflict going on within Jumbo has very little to do with the Vuelta and everything to do with Primoz wanting to be a co-leader in next years tour. His "defiance" has nothing to do with Kuss and everything to do with team management. I completely understand Primoz's point of view. He has earned the right to once again be the leader at the TDF.

On the other hand, Vinge has won the TDF two years in a row. I don't believe he should have to share leadership. He has earned the right to have a team fully dedicated to him for the Tour.

The only solution I see for Primoz is to leave to a team so he can be the exclusive leader. Jumbo should let him go without penalty. Otherwise, team cohesion at Jumbo next year is going to be horrific.
The team can manage Van Aerts ambitions at the Tour, they can manage Roglic' ambitions at the Tour.
 
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Kuss getting in the way is a bit of a get out of jail free card for them to be honest. What if Roglic had beaten Vingegaard head-to-head? Then they’d have a problem on their hands for the Tour next year.
Wouldn't think so.
Nobody expects a TdF winner to show up at Vuelta and be in 100% top form.
Vingo has proven that he is the best GT racer at the moment. Roglic on the other hand, well, he had repeatedly some problems at the TdF.
The only one capable of challenging Vingo at the TdF still seems Pogacar at the moment.
But as a fan I would love to see Roglic change team and challenge Vingo / Pogacar next July.
 
front page article:


Jonas Vingegaard, who looks set to finish in second place barring any surprises on Saturday's tricky stage 20 to Guadarrama, told TV2 before stage 19 that he had been put in a "difficult situation" during the race, stating that he would have preferred to call a truce after the second rest day.

"It's a team sport and Sepp has helped me so many times so why should I stab him in the back? That's not who I am as a person," Vingegaard told the Danish broadcaster. "I don't want to do that, and until [stage 18] I was put in a somewhat difficult situation, where I felt that perhaps I was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

"We had agreed that we would race for the red jersey, and it was clear that if the other two duel over it, then I also want to be involved. I would have liked that after the rest day, we had not fought for [the red jersey] anymore and had just ridden defensively. But we decided that we should fight for it, so then I was also put in a bit of a difficult situation, I think.

"I would have liked to see that it had been made earlier. It ends up with Sepp still winning – hopefully."
 
"We had agreed that we would race for the red jersey, and it was clear that if the other two duel over it, then I also want to be involved. I would have liked that after the rest day, we had not fought for [the red jersey] anymore and had just ridden defensively. But we decided that we should fight for it, so then I was also put in a bit of a difficult situation, I think.
He certainly makes clear that Rogla did nothing wrong.
 
Wouldn't think so.
Nobody expects a TdF winner to show up at Vuelta and be in 100% top form.
Vingo has proven that he is the best GT racer at the moment. Roglic on the other hand, well, he had repeatedly some problems at the TdF.
The only one capable of challenging Vingo at the TdF still seems Pogacar at the moment.
But as a fan I would love to see Roglic change team and challenge Vingo / Pogacar next July.
I agree Roglic wouldn’t suddenly go above Vingegaard in the pecking order, but denying him a Tour spot as co-leader gets a whole lot more difficult if he wins the Vuelta. Having them as co-leaders at the Tour would be impossible to manage IMO, and could easily end up in some kind of mutiny one way or the other.
 
IMO, this is exactly why Vinge marked Roglic on Angliru. To make sure Roglic didn't win the Vuelta.

Win together really just became "win with anyone except the guy I don't like".

I mean there's no way to sugar-coat any of this. Vingegaard jumped ahead of Rog in GC on stage 16. Maybe Vinge & his camp thought that was a great plan 'just in case' something happened to Kuss but that's obviously going to be a problem for number 21 in the team, aka his teammate (who was 50 seconds ahead in GC after the ITT & before the Tourmalet).

A rhetorical question here for Vingegaard would be "so what if Rog wins the Vuelta? He's still Jumbo Visma". The same could be asked of Rog as well with regards to Vingegaard.

This is evidently one of the first times Jumbo Visma has faced a situation where two riders have clear antipathy for each other. It kind of blew up out of nowhere as well.
 
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I have to say I am not a fan of gifting a GC to another rider - even one who seems as sympathetic as Kuss. I can respect the sentiment and the person(s) doing it, but I do not agree with it.

That being said, I really don't understand the conspiracy theorizing, because everything people have said, is perfectly consistent with their personalities and prior actions.

Roglic is a competitor. He rides to win (as he should), and he wanted this race to be decided on the road, by who is the strongest. This is very consistent with how he has ridden throughout his career. It's consistent with what he has said throughout. It doesn't make him a bad person and it doesn't mean that he isn't happy for Sepp Kuss.

Vingegaard is very much a "sensitive" guy from a small village in Scandinavia. I don't see a reason to disbelieve him when he says he wanted Kuss to win once it became clear that was a realistic option, and I don't see any reason to doubt his recounting of events. It's not something any of the others who know what was said and done contradict, and it tracks with how he behaves as a person both in and outside races.

I think JV has failed somewhat in team management, but I can understand why this was a very, very difficult situation for them to handle. Because they have two "Kings" on the team - Roglic, who is the "old King", is a fantastic rider with a great palmares. And Vingegaard, who is the "new King" and who (IMO) is the undisputed GT rider at the moment - and each with their own wishes as to how to handle the situation.

I found it quite interesting prior to the Vuelta, that the JV DS explicitly went out to say that Roglic was still "King of JV". Because I think it pretty clear that is no longer the case - although Vingegaard will not win the Vuelta, the team is basically doing what he (says) he wanted apparently against the wishes of Roglic. I don't see it as impossible for Roglic to continue at JV (because I don't think Vingegaard actually minds sharing captaincy) - but the question is whether he can accept no longer being the absolute top dog.
 
Quite funny how it was the tactical chaos of UAE's El Tridente ft. Fisher-Black that catalysed this whole mess. There is no way in hell VIngegaard thought he was getting a minute back by attacking 5 minutes into a 13 minute climb from a group of about 20.

Watching back it's surreal how they all just stop and look around, like they all just forget how to cycle.

This is no surprise at all - The other teams are riding for fourth so have no reason to chase and don't care which Jumbo rider wins GC - It was tactical naivety at its finest by Jumbo in this stage - You only have to look at SD Worx in the Women's peleton - They attack and the rest ride for second.
 
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Well, there you have it. Halter, Kuss, and Vinge all confirmed that the team and riders agreed prior to Angliru that the three leaders would race it out. I see no reason not to believe them and no reason to say any of them did anything wrong, though I do think some decisions didn’t go Roglic way. After Angliru, they decided Kuss would win and Roglic agreed and let all sources is happy for Kuss even though he’s disappoint for himself.

"We had agreed that we would race for the red jersey, and it was clear that if the other two duel over it, then I also want to be involved. I would have liked that after the rest day, we had not fought for [the red jersey] anymore and had just ridden defensively. But we decided that we should fight for it, so then I was also put in a bit of a difficult situation, I think.

"I would have liked to see that it had been made earlier. It ends up with Sepp still winning – hopefully."
-Vingegaard
Quoting myself from another thread because relevant here IMO

Edit: And to boost my palmares, Remco style.
 
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Win together really just became "win with anyone except the guy I don't like".

I mean there's no way to sugar-coat any of this. Vingegaard jumped ahead of Rog in GC on stage 16. Maybe Vinge & his camp thought that was a great plan 'just in case' something happened to Kuss but that's obviously going to be a problem for number 21 in the team, aka his teammate (who was 50 seconds ahead in GC after the ITT & before the Tourmalet).

A rhetorical question here for Vingegaard would be "so what if Rog wins the Vuelta? He's still Jumbo Visma". The same could be asked of Rog as well with regards to Vingegaard.

This is evidently one of the first times Jumbo Visma has faced a situation where two riders have clear antipathy for each other. It kind of blew up out of nowhere as well.

Don't buy for a second there is real animosity there, if there was Vingegaard would have planted Roglic on stage 17, rather than just sitting in his wheel all the way across the line.

I also think they will (and should) both go to the Tour next year, and that it won't be a major issue for the team to manage.