Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Mountain Sprinter

[Cookster15]

Pogi would lose the tour anyways. He would never be able at his best to follow Vingegaard at granon. Probably at his best, without mistakes he would lose 45 s/1 min.
But then, on hautacam and the ITT, Vingegaard proved that he was the strongest. The strongest team and the strongest rider won. I don't but that narrative of "pogi lost the tour because of his mistakes", and i am a big fan of pogacar.

I am curious which previous or even subsequent performance by Vingegaard gives you the impression Pog at his best could not follow Vingegaard on Granon?

On Granon the damage was done responding to Roglic's attacks and blowing up. Then Pog attacked continually all the way to Paris expending huge energy with an inferior team. Don't underestimate the roll the likes of WvA played after Roglic withdrew. Plus, as mentioned by Shadow, there were other factors against Pog which explain Hautacam and the ITT.

 

[Unchained]

Comical going back over old stories and videos from 5,7 years ago.. a rider is the next big thing or is going to dorf the Merckx legacy, but something falls off,something is missing and the predicted miracles never materialize.
I don't see any bumps in early races that can have anyone predicting the destruction of one rider or another based on 2023 mountain climbing dominance or multi minute reduction in ITT times over past record or competition.
I remember reading and watching all the sweet, sentimental back story about a cute,quiet, ski jumper turned bike racer predicted to turn everything upside down.. Things got turned upside down and kept going down..
Multiple times down and then withdrawal from big races..I think that early predictions are fun, and enjoyable when they are accurate or close. I see the current bunch with multiple men that can contest the upcoming Gran Tours and I don't have a clear favorite based on the history of the clear favorite crumbling..
Everyone could be right.. It's a race between the 2 stallions.. Pog and Vingo and everyone else should feel lucky the two allowed them to survive.. I for one am expecting predictable surprises.
With the level of peloton parity.. anyone can crack or crash once or more and it's open season.. Still February..

 

[Andy schleck]

I am curious which previous or even subsequent performance by Vingegaard gives you the impression Pog at his best could not follow Vingegaard on Granon?

On Granon the damage was done responding to Roglic's attacks and blowing up. Then Pog attacked continually all the way to Paris expending huge energy with an inferior team. Don't underestimate the roll the likes of WvA played after Roglic withdrew. Plus, as mentioned by Shadow, there were other factors against Pog which explain Hautacam and the ITT.

Because altitude and long climbs are the "weakness" of pogacar, and where vingegaard is at his best. The performance of vingegaard on granon, was one of the best, if not the best performance in altitude of this century.
Overall pogacar is a more complete rider because he can be competitive in classics, cobbles, grands tours, one week races. But in altitude and long climbs, clearly vingegaard is better at the moment.

 

[Andy schleck]

Vingegaard beat Pog by 8” in the TT after he was going full out before he almost crashed for fear Pog beats WVA’s time. There’s a difference between someone attacking all the time and the other just having to follow. Pogacar had to recover of his own mistake responding to and attacking two riders with doing a lot of the work on a hard stage, plus his whole team falling apart and the Covid rumors.

Vingegaard slowed down in the last 2 km. He was beating pogi by 30 seconds, and could win the stage.
Clearly team jumbo make the difference on granon stage. But in the other stages, won the strongest rider. Follow pogacar it's not that easy. Vingegaard to sustain the attacks of pogacar, also spent a lot of energy, and after that he attacked.
Like i said, i am a big fan of pogacar. But to me, won the strongest rider. He proved that.

 

[Cookster15]

Because altitude and long climbs are the "weakness" of pogacar, and where vingegaard is at his best. The performance of vingegaard on granon, was one of the best, if not the best performance in altitude of this century.
Overall pogacar is a more complete rider because he can be competitive in classics, cobbles, grands tours, one week races. But in altitude and long climbs, clearly vingegaard is better at the moment.

On altitude you seem to be basing your opinion on one mountain in 2020 - Col de la Loze ??

On long climbs sorry that simply wrong unless you can provide specific example to support your assertion.

 

[Extinction]

I think Pogacar, being such a complete rider, so good an all terrains, and explosive with it, means, however, he is less of a pure climber than Vingegaard. Now I could be wrong, but even if Tadej made no mistakes during last Tour and didn't expend too much energy for too little returns early in the race, he still at best would only have been able to stay with Vingegaard on Granon and Hautacam.

In other words, maximum Vingegaard can push higher numbers uphill. And I think, with the available data, he knows he can go punch for punch with Pogacar at the Tour and likely drop him at some point. Two years ago in the Alpes Pogacar had his number, but it was the Dane's first Tour and he was still growing. Then we saw what Vingegaard was able to do on the Ventoux stage and last year was obviously an even better continuation of that. Evidently the numbers he pushed on yesterday's ascent suggest he is continuing from where he left off at the Tour last year. If the pressure of repeating in France in July doesn't get to him, Jonas should feel confident he can take the fight to Tadej as last year. At the same time Pogacar has looked very good thus far, but how much better can he get and will that permit him to drop Jonas at the Tour? Whatever the case, this season is shaping up to be memorable, and not only between them. Can't wait to see them battling eachother at PN.

 

[Nick2413]

On altitude you seem to be basing your opinion on one mountain in 2020 - Col de la Loze ??

On long climbs sorry that simply wrong unless you can provide specific example to support your assertion.

With Pogacar there are no weaknesses, but he has had some key time losses on high mountain stages with long climbs so it does seem to be a trend. Especially since he is normally gaining time in the mountains.

Loze wasn’t too bad but it’s not his ideal territory and we know it’s Vingegaard’s biggest strength. Granon was a mix of tactical issues and a blowup but also hard to imagine he wouldn’t have lost some time regardless.

He also lost to Vingegaard on that 21.5k climb in the UAE Tour, another long one albeit shallow. I think it’s as close to a weakness as you’ll find with him.

 

[Blobs]

I am curious which previous or even subsequent performance by Vingegaard gives you the impression Pog at his best could not follow Vingegaard on Granon?

Ventoux '21?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I think Pogacar, being such a complete rider, so good an all terrains, and explosive with it, means, however, he is less of a pure climber than Vingegaard. Now I could be wrong, but even if Tadej made no mistakes during last Tour and didn't expend too much energy for too little returns early in the race, he still at best would only have been able to stay with Vingegaard on Granon and Hautacam.

In other words, maximum Vingegaard can push higher numbers uphill. And I think, with the available data, he knows he can go punch for punch with Pogacar at the Tour and likely drop him at some point. Two years ago in the Alpes Pogacar had his number, but it was the Dane's first Tour and he was still growing. Then we saw what Vingegaard was able to do on the Ventoux stage and last year was obviously an even better continuation of that. Evidently the numbers he pushed on yesterday's ascent suggest he is continuing from where he left off at the Tour last year. If the pressure of repeating in France in July doesn't get to him, Jonas should feel confident he can take the fight to Tadej as last year. At the same time Pogacar has looked very good thus far, but how much better can he get and will that permit him to drop Jonas at the Tour? Whatever the case, this season is shaping up to be memorable, and not only between them. Can't wait to see them battling eachother at PN.

Depends on effort length. Nobody has better numbers than Pogacar in 15-30 minutes climbs. As for longer climbs, Vinge is likely the best and if a climb is about 1 hour long there are probably a few guys better than Pog. Then again Romme+Colombiere is an example when Pog had an amazing 50-minute climbing performance (albeit with a few minutes of descent).

 

[Cookster15]

Ventoux '21?

That was very brief. I think others here provided examples.

 

[Red Rick]

Depends on effort length. Nobody has better numbers than Pogacar in 15-30 minutes climbs. As for longer climbs, Vinge is likely the best and if a climb is about 1 hour long there are probably a few guys better than Pog. Then again Romme+Colombiere is an example when Pog had an amazing 50-minute climbing performance (albeit with a few minutes of descent).

Romme+Colombiere should not be treated like a 50 minute climbing performance, there's a clear descent in there.

Also I think the amount that different lengths of climbs top climbers is quite overstated. Vingegaard, when in top form, is world class on like 8 minute climbs, while Pogacar easily cleaned out everyone but Vingegaard on the Galibier last year.

I think it only matters when the riders are quite close to each other, like in the 2020 Tour.

 

[theyoungest]

He also lost to Vingegaard on that 21.5k climb in the UAE Tour, another long one albeit shallow. I think it’s as close to a weakness as you’ll find with him.

That was a late escape from Vingegaard, remember it was two years ago and Vingegaard was a relative unknown. Pogi just let him go, also because he wasn't a GC threat.

I agree that Vingegaard is probably better on super long climbs, certainly if they're on altitude, but that UAE climb is not a good example. It's usually a bunch sprint uphill, and in those Pogacar is clearly better.

 

[Red Rick]

I vaguely read something about Vingegaard being illness and achilles injury early in the season last year? Anyone knows what was up exactly?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I vaguely read something about Vingegaard being illness and achilles injury early in the season last year? Anyone knows what was up exactly?

He was also hampered by his Achilles tendon before the 2021 Tour, but he's been inury free this winter and they expect him to be able to reach an even higher level because of it.

 

[hayneplane]

That was a late escape from Vingegaard, remember it was two years ago and Vingegaard was a relative unknown. Pogi just let him go, also because he wasn't a GC threat.

I agree that Vingegaard is probably better on super long climbs, certainly if they're on altitude, but that UAE climb is not a good example. It's usually a bunch sprint uphill, and in those Pogacar is clearly better.

He probably thought it was Chris Harper anyway

 

[Blobs]

That was very brief. I think others here provided examples.

Vingegaard gained 40 seconds in that "brief" time and was only caught on the descend. It was a clear indicator that Vingegaard could drop Pog in the high mountains, which was then confirmed the year after. Don't pretend it wasn't.

 

[Andy schleck]

On altitude you seem to be basing your opinion on one mountain in 2020 - Col de la Loze ??

On long climbs sorry that simply wrong unless you can provide specific example to support your assertion.

Mont ventoux, granon, hautacam.

The strongest point of pogacar it's the 20/25 min climbs.

 

[Extinction]

"It's a very satisfying feeling to be able to finish off an excellent team effort in this way. Three guys in the team usually ride for our development team. It is impressive to see them holding their own here among the WorldTour teams. Everyone has done their bit. Hopefully, we can show some good things in the coming days.”

My God, they have the C-team and Vingegaard crushed it. Imagine when it's the A-team at the Tour. It will be ridiculous.

 

[Elos Anjos]

T

Take it easy quintana. Go find a job.

You're very much out of your element boy.

 

[Netserk]

You're very much out of your element boy.

Yes, with the quality of the posting descending so steeply, I would be worried for Abandony as well.

 

[hfer07]

WOW

Vingegaard showing off this early in the season is quite exciting quite nice of the Tour de France winner to be that competitive before July. Paris-Nice this year is going to be madness

 

[Cookster15]

Mont ventoux, granon, hautacam.

The strongest point of pogacar it's the 20/25 min climbs.

Mont ventoux was only briefly. There are many reasons why nobody was talking about Vingegaard as a genuine threat before Granon.

The cause of the other two were explained earlier. So you have a sample of 1?

Hautacam by when he was already beat up by Jumbo’s tactics is 17km and pretty sure Pog has done well over plenty of climbs that length. For example Luz Ardiden is 15km and Pog dropped Vingo at the finish.

I am also curious why Vingegaard didn’t respond to Pog’s attack on stage 8 in 2021 when he took over 4 minutes? Lacks courage to take responsibility?

I agree Pog is a bit suspect over 2,000 metres but not on long climbs. More evidence needed.

 

[theyoungest]

I am also curious why Vingegaard didn’t respond to Pog’s attack on stage 8 in 2021 when he took over 4 minutes? Lacks courage to take responsibility?

Why do you feel the need to belittle everything Vingegaard has ever done to make your point about Pogacar being the greatest cyclist that ever lived? In this particular stage, Vingegaard crashed. Also, he had entered the Tour as a domestique and was suddenly the team's GC rider, that takes a different mindset.

 

[Red Rick]

There are many reasons why nobody was talking about Vingegaard as a genuine threat before Granon.

Maybe it was a minority, but there were absolutely people who saw Vingegaard as a big threat. Especially after Pogacar only just barely beat Vingegaard on PdbF

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Maybe it was a minority, but there were absolutely people who saw Vingegaard as a big threat. Especially after Pogacar only just barely beat Vingegaard on PdbF

Yup, after PDBF it was clear that Vinge would be a big threat to Pogacar (who still seemed almost unbeatable until then). I remember I rated here Vinge's chances to win as 30% before the Alps (vs Pogacar's 60%).