JV reaches out to anonymous critic.

buckwheat

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JV PM'd me generally outlining his standing with the major players who have been seen as his allies in the current situation. He offered to provide me with contact info for journalists, WADA officials, and other cycling figures who are engaged in the ongoing controversy and suggested that if I spoke to them, or with the passage of time my perspective on the issue would change and I guess, I might come around to see and understand the way things have been handled.

He encouraged me to contact these people with his assistance.

I reiterated to him by PM that my vociferous opinion did happen to bring out a lot of support for his position, and I explained some of my personal background for why I felt so strongly. I still feel strongly that direct answers are the best.

Obviously I take him at his word that the people involved that he did mention support him.

He addressed the situation with me and all I can do now, and the right thing to do, is to sit back and see how the situation plays out, because I don't know the specifics of what is going on, other than to see the uncertainty of cycling fans here and on other sites.

So in closing, I wish him good luck and success with the main objective of his management, which is successful cycling teams.

PS... I also stated to him that I didn't think the title of the thread was proper, and for that I think CN has a little responsibility.

I am responsible for my actions and invoked the title many, many, times. His direct message to me has led me to reconsider that behavior and admit it's wrong, and apologize for it, and I do apologize JV. The stuff I write does reflect upon me and I should take more effort to refine my words. Going forward I'll try harder in that area.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Firstly - good on JV for taking the time to write to you, and also well done to you to for being able to go back and review your opinion.

I did not agree (with some) of your argument on the other thread, but as with all debates it helped me to look critically at the subject and come to an informed opinion.
It is the main reason I enjoy and participate in this forum.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Ditto

Dr. Maserati said:
Firstly - good on JV for taking the time to write to you, and also well done to you to for being able to go back and review your opinion.

I did not agree (with some) of your argument on the other thread, but as with all debates it helped me to look critically at the subject and come to an informed opinion.
It is the main reason I enjoy and participate in this forum.
Ditto. Thanks to both of you for dealing with the situation the old-fashioned way, (virtual) face to face.
 
May 14, 2010
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Did he threaten to sue you, or call it to your attention that he'd be well within his rights to sue you?
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Firstly - good on JV for taking the time to write to you, and also well done to you to for being able to go back and review your opinion.

I did not agree (with some) of your argument on the other thread, but as with all debates it helped me to look critically at the subject and come to an informed opinion.
It is the main reason I enjoy and participate in this forum.
I roundly disagree with you. Right this moment.
 

buckwheat

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Maxiton said:
Did he threaten to sue you, or call it to your attention that he'd be well within his rights to sue you?
No, no, not at all.

I just paraphrased what he wrote and what I wrote.

From my impression he wasn't threatened by what I wrote, and didn't respond with any threats to me.

As to his successfully suing me, in the U.S. we're fairly well protected from commenting on public figures, and if there is an absence of malice there is no way a public figure can prevail in such a lawsuit, but this never came up. funny



I don't know if you followed the thread but most supported JV and ridiculed me, but as it went on, some came to respect my position.

He had the decency to respond to me, and you saw my reply and consideration of that.
 
buckwheat said:
JV PM'd me generally outlining his standing with the major players who have been seen as his allies in the current situation. He offered to provide me with contact info for journalists, WADA officials, and other cycling figures who are engaged in the ongoing controversy and suggested that if I spoke to them, or with the passage of time my perspective on the issue would change and I guess, I might come around to see and understand the way things have been handled.

...
Good for him. Good for you.

If you had the time, it would be interesting to do some follow-up. That is quite the offer.

As noted in the other thread, I had a good dialog with him as well. Concerns that I had appear to have been addressed and were spoken to directly.

Dave.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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There is little value beating on JV, it is like kicking a kitten.

While some may disagree with his strategy the fact is few have done to change the culture of the sport then JV. The goal is long term change.
 
A

Anonymous

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I want a freaking PM about his ridiculous sideburns. He owes me an explanation as to why he will not shave those hideous things.
 

buckwheat

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D-Queued said:
Good for him. Good for you.

If you had the time, it would be interesting to do some follow-up. That is quite the offer.

As noted in the other thread, I had a good dialog with him as well. Concerns that I had appear to have been addressed and were spoken to directly.

Dave.
If I was personally involved, I would definitely follow up. He's directly addressed my main issue, which was the confrontational aspect, so for me to kind of "check out" his personal and professional relationships to weigh my strategy against what his is, I don't think would be correct. I think if I continued to strongly advance my opinion here, I would be obligated to take him up, but I'm reconciled to waiting the situation out and see what happens.

JV is aware of my opinion, and the concern of the original thread, and if he wants to address these things, he'll do so with Walsh, and Kimmage,(who he mentioned) or Juliet Macur, or some one else like CN or some other cycling publication.

Race Radio said:
There is little value beating on JV, it is like kicking a kitten.

While some may disagree with his strategy the fact is few have done to change the culture of the sport then JV. The goal is long term change.
I think this is my main contention, and as I stated to another forum member in a DM, I think, in a small way, his response may show my view of the issue may have merit.

He responded to an apparently unreasonable person(me) directly, and swayed me somewhat as to his POV.

I just think, bold, direct, speaking really gains one the support of reasonable people who will understand the situation.

At any rate, I wasn't going after him because I wanted to be a bully. I'm sure FL is feeling light years better than he has felt in a long time, and reasonable people are going to understand the situation re JV.

I'll even venture to say that this may be possible with LA, at least public opinion wise. Privately he may have a lot more to answer for.
 

buckwheat

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Thoughtforfood said:
I want a freaking PM about his ridiculous sideburns. He owes me an explanation as to why he will not shave those hideous things.
funny, I did comment to him that I thought it was good for him, about his fashion thing. I'm amused and entertained by it and kind of criticized the people who are taking shots at him for it.

It's not me to make fashion statements but I do admire someone for "saying" what the heck.
 
May 14, 2010
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buckwheat said:
No, no, not at all.

I just paraphrased what he wrote and what I wrote.

From my impression he wasn't threatened by what I wrote, and didn't respond with any threats to me.

As to his successfully suing me, in the U.S. we're fairly well protected from commenting on public figures, and if there is an absence of malice there is no way a public figure can prevail in such a lawsuit.

I don't know if you followed the thread but most supported JV and ridiculed me, but as it went on, some came to respect my position.

He had the decency to respond to me, and you saw my reply and consideration of that.
I read a bit of the thread on my phone during the work day, but by the time I got home and could really read it, it had been heavily redacted. So I guess I'd have to say I never really got to read it. What I did read, though, was entertaining. And I have to say I was surprised that JV actually appeared on the board to address the concerns being discussed.

At first, I thought you were being needlessly intransigent, and strident from the convenient standpoint of your presumed anonymity. But as you persisted with it I came to see where you were coming from, and then your position began to seem understandable. Apparently it was understandable to Vaughters as well, which accounts for his contacting you with all that info.

But I also have to say that, Vaughters contact notwithstanding, your sudden transformation, buckwheat, is remarkable, akin to a born again experience - in the process of which you seem to have found the time to bone up on libel law. :)

All's well that ends well, though, and I look forward to hearing what comes next. Do you plan to follow up on the info he gave you?
 

buckwheat

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Maxiton said:
I read a bit of the thread on my phone during the work day, but by the time I got home and could really read it, it had been heavily redacted. So I guess I'd have to say I never really got to read it. What I did read, though, was entertaining. And I have to say I was surprised that JV actually appeared on the board to address the concerns being discussed.

At first, I thought you were being needlessly intransigent, and strident from the convenient standpoint of your presumed anonymity. But as you persisted with it I came to see where you were coming from, and then your position began to seem understandable. Apparently it was understandable to Vaughters as well, which accounts for his contacting you with all that info.

But I also have to say that, Vaughters contact notwithstanding, your sudden transformation, buckwheat, is remarkable, akin to a born again experience - in the process of which you seem to have found the time to bone up on libel law. :)

All's well that ends well, though, and I look forward to hearing what comes next. Do you plan to follow up on the info he gave you?
Oh no, I don't know if my postscript on the 1st post of this thread persuaded you that JV was going to take some legal action of some kind but that's not in any way what happened.

I still feel very strongly about what I wrote in the original thread, and that came to the attention of JV, the subject of that thread.

My transformation that you mention is that I've said my piece and it must seem more than obvious to most that I've exhausted the subject matter which, I am not as familiar with, as JV is.

He heard me and responded to me. I did note that I wasn't sure if the original title of the thread was appropriate but in spite of that I used those words many times. IF I could have been more diplomatic but just as forceful, I think that would accrue to my own benefit, just as far as being portrayed more seriously.

JV is aware of my position as are most here. I wouldn't mind seeing a huge expose on all of these issues immediately but as far as I know, that won't be happening, maybe it will......

Those who continue to follow Pro cycling will see how this turns out. We do have this big Federal case going on, so it may be best to let that play out.

If 5 years down the line we're still talking about these constant scandals, it might be able to be said JV's approach wasn't the best. Then again it may be a societal issue that everybody gets away with what they are able to.

In my own personal life I have pushed similiar employment/legal issues as far as they could go and was completely transparent with my adversaries about exactly what I did and what I was going to do.

But then again, everybody is not me, and the guy had enough decency to contact me, so that's that, I suppose.

But no, no threats or consideration of legal action, but that's pretty funny.

Wow, I'd be pretty hard headed if that were the case.:D
 
May 14, 2010
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buckwheat said:
Oh no, I don't know if my postscript on the 1st post of this thread persuaded you that JV was going to take some legal action of some kind but that's not in any way what happened.

I still feel very strongly about what I wrote in the original thread, and that came to the attention of JV, the subject of that thread.

My transformation that you mention is that I've said my piece and it must seem more than obvious to most that I've exhausted the subject matter which, I am not as familiar with, as JV is.

He heard me and responded to me. I did note that I wasn't sure if the original title of the thread was appropriate but in spite of that I used those words many times. IF I could have been more diplomatic but just as forceful, I think that would accrue to my own benefit, just as far as being portrayed more seriously.

JV is aware of my position as are most here. I wouldn't mind seeing a huge expose on all of these issues immediately but as far as I know, that won't be happening, maybe it will......

Those who continue to follow Pro cycling will see how this turns out. We do have this big Federal case going on, so it may be best to let that play out.

If 5 years down the line we're still talking about these constant scandals, it might be able to be said JV's approach wasn't the best. Then again it may be a societal issue that everybody gets away with what they are able to.

In my own personal life I have pushed similiar employment/legal issues as far as they could go and was completely transparent with my adversaries about exactly what I did and what I was going to do.

But then again, everybody is not me, and the guy had enough decency to contact me, so that's that, I suppose.

But no, no threats or consideration of legal action, but that's pretty funny.

Wow, I'd be pretty hard headed if that were the case.:D
OK, my man, thanks for the honest reply. Good on ya (as the Australians say). I have more respect for you now. And more trust in Vaughters and his efforts.
 

buckwheat

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Maxiton said:
I read a bit of the thread on my phone during the work day, but by the time I got home and could really read it, it had been heavily redacted. So I guess I'd have to say I never really got to read it. What I did read, though, was entertaining. And I have to say I was surprised that JV actually appeared on the board to address the concerns being discussed.

At first, I thought you were being needlessly intransigent, and strident from the convenient standpoint of your presumed anonymity. But as you persisted with it I came to see where you were coming from, and then your position began to seem understandable. Apparently it was understandable to Vaughters as well, which accounts for his contacting you with all that info.

But I also have to say that, Vaughters contact notwithstanding, your sudden transformation, buckwheat, is remarkable, akin to a born again experience - in the process of which you seem to have found the time to bone up on libel law. :)

All's well that ends well, though, and I look forward to hearing what comes next. Do you plan to follow up on the info he gave you?
He really didn't give me any info other than suggesting people I contact to support his position and that he had provided support to certain people. He said if I didn't have their contact info to contact him and he would provide it. So no, we'll just see what happens.

I guess here's the thing. I'm just for answering everything completely directly no matter what the topic. I'm not talking about stuff like whether LA was in some strip joint bonding with his teammates, but the pertinent things like FL discussed or like Frankie has discussed.

I guess the LA/strip club thing could become an issue because of his earlier portrayal of himself as a happily married straight arrow family man. That cat has been out of the bag for a while now so it's less of an issue.

Jeez, lets just get this doping thing out in the open, truth and reconciliation.

Obviously now it's gone way past that and people may go to prison. That's unfortunate.

The LA doping was bad enough but the vicious retribution is another thing entirely.
 
Escarabajo said:
...

Man, JV sounds very serious about this doping stuff.
I once had quite a long dialog with teh ex-business manager of the Navigators Cycling team after he sent out his open letter - during the Floyd fracas - complaining about scrutiny and how it was unfair for his NA-based team.

At that time, I was suggesting that he try a different tactic and tried to persuade him to go on the offensive against doping. If nothing else, this seemed to be a lot more politically correct than the tactic that had been taken. While he ultimately agreed, there was no public retraction.

In contrast, it was a breath of fresh air to have JV explain how "draconian" they are in their "zero needles" enforcement.

Dave.
 
buckwheat said:
JV PM'd me generally outlining his standing with the major players who have been seen as his allies in the current situation. He offered to provide me with contact info for journalists, WADA officials, and other cycling figures who are engaged in the ongoing controversy and suggested that if I spoke to them, or with the passage of time my perspective on the issue would change and I guess, I might come around to see and understand the way things have been handled.

He encouraged me to contact these people with his assistance.

I reiterated to him by PM that my vociferous opinion did happen to bring out a lot of support for his position, and I explained some of my personal background for why I felt so strongly. I still feel strongly that direct answers are the best.

Obviously I take him at his word that the people involved that he did mention support him.

He addressed the situation with me and all I can do now, and the right thing to do, is to sit back and see how the situation plays out, because I don't know the specifics of what is going on, other than to see the uncertainty of cycling fans here and on other sites.

So in closing, I wish him good luck and success with the main objective of his management, which is successful cycling teams.

PS... I also stated to him that I didn't think the title of the thread was proper, and for that I think CN has a little responsibility.

I am responsible for my actions and invoked the title many, many, times. His direct message to me has led me to reconsider that behavior and admit it's wrong, and apologize for it, and I do apologize JV. The stuff I write does reflect upon me and I should take more effort to refine my words. Going forward I'll try harder in that area.
Wow. I'm impressed by your objectivity and humility. An excellent model. Gratzi.
 
buckwheat said:
JV PM'd me generally outlining his standing with the major players who have been seen as his allies in the current situation. He offered to provide me with contact info for journalists, WADA officials, and other cycling figures who are engaged in the ongoing controversy and suggested that if I spoke to them, or with the passage of time my perspective on the issue would change and I guess, I might come around to see and understand the way things have been handled.

He encouraged me to contact these people with his assistance.
The stuff I write does reflect upon me and I should take more effort to refine my words. Going forward I'll try harder in that area.
I for one lost complete respect for you. You didn’t stop. I told you to stop. Many asked you to stop. I asked the moderators to close the thread. I mentioned that it’s bordering on legal territory but the thread still remained open.

The absurdity of your arguments that Jonathan Vaughters has no spine but the fact that you didn’t know him and once he contacted you directly you saw the light? Now he has a spine? Because you now know him? You went on a one man demolition job out to get one person. And you didn’t stop. I said many times that Mr. Vaughters is a great man. There is so much he does on the anti-doping front that none of us ever hear about. Floyd has taken the kamikaze route to redemption. It was the only option left for Landis. JV has taken another route and for good reason. Its takes both types and they compliment each well for the end goal of dope free cycling.

We like you. But next time listen to your peers when they speak. Back off and think about what you’re writing. If you wanted to print your real name, admit to any indiscretions of your own then and still name call Vaughters then go for it. But hiding behind an IP address and shooting down one of the good guys is not on. All you really did was force the omerta – the very thing you were saying you were attempting to stop.

Think about your actions next time. You hurt very good people.

To CyclingNews:- Next time - when someone lodges a formal complaint you need to take action. Doing nothing is not an excuse or a bypass for legal action.

At the end of day it’s just an Internet forum. A lot of stuff just gets thrown around on this board. A good 70% is fantasy. None the less using the internet as a tool for bullying is against the law. Don’t do it.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Fair play, man.

Good posts. Original thread got a little heated but was an entertaining discussion nonetheless.
 

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