JV1973 Appreciation Society

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Is this cool or what? Now this is what this board needs. Thanks for coming on and mixing the place up with some real life information!

 

[Hugh Januss]

I would honestly like nothing better than to truly be able to believe that pro cycling is close to drug free. Maybe Vaughters is genuinely working in that direction. At this point I need to be convinced, and it won't be easy.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Is this cool or what? Now this is what this board needs. Thanks for coming on and mixing the place up with some real life information!

I do agree.

I joined this forum to learn more about how Pro Cycling works - even though I have followed the sport for 25 years.

I appreciated that JV came in to debate with us - and also set us straight on some facts, as this stops us from wild speculation.

I do appreciate his efforts in cycling and do feel he is genuine in what he has done for the sport, as a fan of cycling I welcome that.

Of course we should still challenge what we see and I believe that JV has gone a long way towards setting the record straight on some of the performances we have seen.

I hope he sticks around and continues to offer us his experience and viewpoint on the current state of cycling and how we all feel it can be improved.

 

[Race Radio]

We need more guys like JV in the bike game.

 

[Digger]

Firstly I admire JV for even coming on here.
I admired Garmin / JV for what they did at last year's Tour with Paul Kimmage. When someone like Kimmage gives a ringing endorsement, then something must be right.
The points JV has raised in another thread tonight about his ideas for cleaning up the sport are extreme but brilliant and certainly refreshing. They are extreme but in my view, necessary.
The thing I genuinely can't get my head around is the interest by Garmin in signing Alberto. This is not consistent, in my opinion, with a team who lets Paul Kimmage walk into riders' rooms for three weeks during the Tour. The guy, aside from current suspicions about his dominant performances, shouldn't even be riding due to Operation Puerto. I honestly want to believe but this doesn't make it easy. Maybe there was politics involved, and Garmin had never any intention of signing the guy, I just don't know.
But I will reiterate that that I honestly want to believe in Garmin.
I believe it would be hypocritical, considering what I've said on another thread, to come on here and not outline my personal concern about Alberto. Sorry to people who wanted to keep it completely pro JV on this one.

 

[blackcat]

We need more guys like JV in the bike game.

+ 1 to that.

I put in 1/2 a membership. 1/2, cos he is doing more than most. (will not say anyone).

But the other part, has major reservations at the spin and exceptionalism. Don't approve of that. Appreciate the political expediency, and exigencies getting ROI for the sponsor. And when Columbia and Radio Shack are getting greedy, it leaves a sliver for getting traction. You need a tighter ship, and a better strategy for cut-thru.

So, 1/2 of a membership in the JV73 society. With a caveat of one's own cognitive dissonance. Can make my membership to the BAAS platinum tho.

 

[blackcat]

Firstly I admire JV for even coming on here.
I admired Garmin / JV for what they did at last year's Tour with Paul Kimmage. When someone like Kimmage gives a ringing endorsement, then something must be right.
The points JV has raised in another thread tonight about his ideas for cleaning up the sport are extreme but brilliant and certainly refreshing. They are extreme but in my view, necessary.
The thing I genuinely can't get my head around is the interest by Garmin in signing Alberto. This is not consistent, in my opinion, with a team who lets Paul Kimmage walk into riders' rooms for three weeks during the Tour. The guy, aside from current suspicions about his dominant performances, shouldn't even be riding due to Operation Puerto. I honestly want to believe but this doesn't make it easy. Maybe there was politics involved, and Garmin had never any intention of signing the guy, I just don't know.
But I will reiterate that that I honestly want to believe in Garmin.

JV would have refuted it if they did not nibble. Joe Lindsey is connected, his mail was good. Don't know how they leak info from Garmin. Besides Nutra-Life I also heard they were moving on another sponsor to finance Contador. Now, I stress, could be apocryphal and only noise. Gotta filter the good mail in all the noise.

 

[Cobber]

We need more guys like JV in the bike game.

+2....................

 

[Winterfold]

+1 for me. JV comes across as straight up - no mincing of words, direct questions are given direct answers, backed up by data. Then there is the Kimmage/Dave Millar reconciliation AND the belief that Wiggo MUST be clean.

JV - if you are taking us for a ride or Wiggo gets busted the Wilier will go in the bin. Don't let us down

 

[Hugh Januss]

Firstly I admire JV for even coming on here.
I admired Garmin / JV for what they did at last year's Tour with Paul Kimmage. When someone like Kimmage gives a ringing endorsement, then something must be right.
The points JV has raised in another thread tonight about his ideas for cleaning up the sport are extreme but brilliant and certainly refreshing. They are extreme but in my view, necessary.
The thing I genuinely can't get my head around is the interest by Garmin in signing Alberto. This is not consistent, in my opinion, with a team who lets Paul Kimmage walk into riders' rooms for three weeks during the Tour. The guy, aside from current suspicions about his dominant performances, shouldn't even be riding due to Operation Puerto. I honestly want to believe but this doesn't make it easy. Maybe there was politics involved, and Garmin had never any intention of signing the guy, I just don't know.
But I will reiterate that that I honestly want to believe in Garmin.

Maybe JV believes Contador is really doing it clean.
Puerto was a long time ago now, at some point cycling has to let that go and focus on today. Maybe Contador is good enough that he actually is doing it clean. I know a bunch will totally disagree with that, I'm not sure that I don't. But it is possible, anything is possible.

 

[Winterfold]

I dont know what to believe about Contador - there's too much uncertainty and he is too dominant across the board - which bothers me because he is poetry in motion on a bike and his technique is so good I dont think he needs to.

If he just kicked **** on the climbs and then let Cancellara win the TT I would feel a lot happier about him.

 

[blackcat]

Yes it was great that JV came along and set people straight on power issues with some simple points about getting the length of climbs correct before you compare. We need more people like him who have the courage to stand up and tell the truth to the doom monger critics.

He knows his boy Wiggins is not clean and you can hear the self-doubt in his (written) voice.

fixed it for ya!

Fact is, if Wiggins is clean, he is the rider of his generation. To compete with Contador, Schleck and Armstrong who are on everything.

Is JV gonna compensate Wiggins for the first rider over the line on bread and water? IE, equivalent to the dirty Tour winner? 2 million euro per? Does he have he business model which can afford that, and extract that rent from his sponsors. Ofcourse not. Ask JV why he won't go and pay Wiggins for the hypothetical clean win. That will tell you something. Galic Ho said audit the books. Yeah, I want to know how much the new contract for Wiggins is, and what the underlying principles are in their formula for compensation at Garmin. That will be instructive.

 

[Winterfold]

but did he compete - or did he just hang in there and suffer horribly while never really threatening?

That's what I took out of it - not that he had a chance of actually winning or even getting on the podium, just that he was able to be somewhere near the tail of the elite group

I admit this is a hope and a belief and I am prepared for the worst - but this would be the worst of the worst IMO, bar finding out Queen Victoria is really a chap!

 

[blackcat]

but did he compete - or did he just hang in there and suffer horribly while never really threatening?

That's what I took out of it - not that he had a chance of actually winning or even getting on the podium, just that he was able to be somewhere near the tail of the elite group

I admit this is a hope and a belief and I am prepared for the worst - but this would be the worst of the worst IMO, bar finding out Queen Victoria is really a chap!

this thread is about JV appreciation.

But Wiggins would have been on the podium, if Armstrong had not made the split in the first week. If you add up what Armstrong gained on Wiggins from that stage, and the TTT, Wiggins probably was 30 seconds up. For a guy who has never climbed a cat 4 before, that was remarkable. (OK, hyperbole, I think the l'Avenir stage he won with Raisin was a power climbing queen stage, where they were allowed to go in a move, that was given enough time to win from that breakaway).

 

[Digger]

Maybe JV believes Contador is really doing it clean. Puerto was a long time ago now, at some point cycling has to let that go and focus on today. Maybe Contador is good enough that he actually is doing it clean. I know a bunch will totally disagree with that, I'm not sure that I don't. But it is possible, anything is possible.

I'll be one of the people who disagrees Hugh, but with respect for you.
Also, I won't go into why I disagree, on this particular thread at any rate.

 

[Winterfold]

blackcat most of your posts make sense - but there has to be someone you can believe in. Wiggo is the first guy I've believed in for 10 years.

The JV appreciation and his willingness to engage is a big part of that - it would be too easy to say 'next question' or just not show his face on a forum like this, but he's here - and he's got a heck of lot to lose if Wiggo or VDV ever get busted.

Climbing is as much as psychological as it is physiological - maybe you can do the Watts but if you dont believe you are in the grupetto.

 

[blackcat]

blackcat most of your posts make sense - but there has to be someone you can believe in. Wiggo is the first guy I've believed in for 10 years.

The JV appreciation and his willingness to engage is a big part of that - it would be too easy to say 'next question' or just not show his face on a forum like this, but he's here - and he's got a heck of lot to lose if Wiggo or VDV ever get busted.

Climbing is as much as psychological as it is physiological - maybe you can do the Watts but if you dont believe you are in the grupetto.

I appreciate Wiggins has never been on his limit in the mtns before 2009.

But what should have taught you about Armstrong, Landis, and the others, is the narrative they weave and construct. PR and spint.

JV coming on here is 2 parts transparency, 1 part spin, and 1 part damage control. He does not have time to go to the French or Dutch messageboards, and put his case forward about Wiggins, but this forum could be a potential amplifier, and megaphone. Wise to put your case forward, control the message, differentiate yourself. It is about exceptionalism. I am not gullible enough to swallow it all.

The 2 parts transparency should be applauded. For the 1 part spin and 1 part damage control (yes, they overlap and share domain), I want to hook JV73 up to a lie detector test

 

[pedaling squares]

I will add my (fake) name to the list of those in appreciation. It is nice to see someone with a position of influence within this sport taking time to address the fans, especially when many of those fans are questioning his way of doing business. It takes stones to put your name out there in a crowd of anonymous critics. Whether or not they support you or agree with you, I think many of these readers respect you a little more now JV. Chapeau.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

But what should have taught you about Armstrong, Landis, and the others, is the narrative they weave and construct. PR and spint.

One big difference here though - is all the above didnt just engage in spin, but they lied and it was easy for anyone with objectivity to find the true facts.

 

[blackcat]

One big difference here though - is all the above didnt just engage in spin, but they lied and it was easy for anyone with objectivity to find the true facts.

what about JV? Was it a Jeffersonian good faith to take Contador at one's word? Or was it a lie? Do you really think JV believes Contador is clean? Did he really get into first stage negotiations and accede to Contador's soigneur and brother being attached? And what would Kimmage say?

Lie is almost indicting his integrity. A justified and expedient lie I would call it, reticent to hold his integrity at stake. My protest, is the spin and the myth. Yes, they may do their best, and prevent the intra-Tour doping. Yet how is it good faith, when they message in communications their exceptionalism, and it is bought writ large by 90% on here, and this is a self-selecting sample, a sceptical sample, and you folks are believing. Cycling should have tought us, don't believe. The default status should not be blind trust.

So, JV, yes, much better than the rest. Yes doing good. Yes burdened trying to get traction for his sponsors in a competitive marketplace. But still compromised. Don't like the previous exceptionalism.

But, who am I to be sanctimonious and take the moral high ground, we are all compromised at the heart of it. I just would like to disabuse a few here of the misconceptions and the myths. And I would prefer a clean sport. Without aggressively compromising civil liberties.

 

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Wasn't it just a rumor Garmin was looking to pick up Contador? Seems like an awful lot of absolutes being defined on something that never happened.

 

[blackcat]

Wasn't it just a rumor Garmin was looking to pick up Contador? Seems like an awful lot of absolutes being defined on something that never happened.

Joe Lindsey Boulder Report. Make your own mind up

 

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Jesus!

I refuse to make up my mind on things that didn't happen!!!

lol

 

[131313]

Yes it was great that JV came along and set people straight on power issues with some simple points about getting the length of climbs correct before you compare. We need more people like him who have the courage to stand up and tell the truth to the doom monger critics.

He knows his boy Wiggins is clean and isn't afraid to say it, no matter what stick he gets from the trolls who are only after controversy.

keep in mind that Blackcat has an incredible hard-on for Wiggins for some reason, why I'm not sure.

As far as Contador I don't know what to think. I really don't know what his involvement was with Puerto and I doubt we'll ever know. He offered a DNA sample to clear his name, after he first refused. Fuentes himself said that some names on the list were wrong and that plenty of people that weren't on the list were customers. I'm as suspicious as anyone but it is possible that he really is just really, really good. He was always incredible against the watch so his time trialing is no surprise.

Maybe I just like him because he crushed Lance. Anyway, I'm willing to believe if JV looked into him he must have had a reason to hope. I know he took in one guy who was previously juiced and is riding clean now,and who's performance speaks directly to this.

I know it's convenient for people to believe that Cesar and Moncoutier are the only guys with talent, but I just don't believe that. Before blood doping Eddie Merckx dominated the sport and Lemond when he was at his peak before the accident was far above everyone else. People often talk about his estimated 5.6 w/kg ascent up D'Huez, but from his own book, 'he rode the climb like a tourist'. Some people really are that good. Until it's proven otherwise I just have to hold out the possibility that Contador is that good.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

what about JV? Was it a Jeffersonian good faith to take Contador at one's word? Or was it a lie? Do you really think JV believes Contador is clean? Did he really get into first stage negotiations and accede to Contador's soigneur and brother being attached? And what would Kimmage say?

Lie is almost indicting his integrity. A justified and expedient lie I would call it, reticent to hold his integrity at stake. My protest, is the spin and the myth. Yes, they may do their best, and prevent the intra-Tour doping. Yet how is it good faith, when they message in communications their exceptionalism, and it is bought writ large by 90% on here, and this is a self-selecting sample, a sceptical sample, and you folks are believing. Cycling should have tought us, don't believe. The default status should not be blind trust.

So, JV, yes, much better than the rest. Yes doing good. Yes burdened trying to get traction for his sponsors in a competitive marketplace. But still compromised. Don't like the previous exceptionalism.

But, who am I to be sanctimonious and take the moral high ground, we are all compromised at the heart of it. I just would like to disabuse a few here of the misconceptions and the myths. And I would prefer a clean sport. Without aggressively compromising civil liberties.

No - Pro Cycling shouldn't teach us not to believe -but it should teach us to question, probe and examine the facts - thats a big difference.

Agree totally that there should not be blind trust - I am delighted that with JV coming in to share his thoughts that people here did not ooh & ahh and make it a big love-in.

I have no problem asking the tough questions - and have already said that if Garmin do sign Contador that it would be in their interests to publicly release his UCI profile - as not to do so will lose the trust and goodwill of real cycling fans.

JV is entitled to talk to Contador - however if I am correct in my view of AC than the only Argyle he will be wearing is if someone buys him nice socks for Christmas.