Ketones... the latest super fuel?

[Ninety5rpm]

I did a search on "ketones" in The Clinic. Finding nothing, I'm starting this thread.

Ketones are a highly efficient natural form of energy delivery, and artificial ketone treatments are now being developed to treat certain diseases. Just get through the first few paragraphs of this and you'll see what I mean:

www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/ketones_to_the_rescue.html

The promise for performance enhancement from such treatments should be obvious.

I heard a rumor from within the scientific research community that a certain yellow jersey rider and his team are using ketone treatments to enhance their performance...

Of course, these things are not on the UCI's Chapter III THE PROHIBITED LIST yet, and probably won't be for years. So there is no rule against using them.

Is that crazy, or what?

 

[Gogojv]

How can it be used in doping.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Did you read the article?

 

[Gogojv]

Indeed i read it. Sorry if i sounded harsh.

What i read is.
Glucose is used for fuel burning. Musscle and brain.

Lack of glucose then fat is burned. Blood cells do not bring this fuel to the brain but instead ketonus are produced in liver for emegency fuel.

Artificial ketonus can be used for some brain disseases.

But please enlighting me on the doping advantages?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It's certainly interesting, but I do not think they would constitute a doping advantage.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

A limitation to the duration and intensity of exercise is fatigue. Running low on glycogen stores is one reason that you may feel fatigue during exercise. As an adaptation to a regular exercise program, your body makes changes to metabolism. Regular exercise causes an increase in the mitochondria of your muscle cells. This allows for a more rapid use of fat as fuel. Turning to fat as the primary fuel source during exercise allows you to work harder and longer without feeling fatigue. This is known as muscle glycogen sparing. Part of glycogen sparing means that your body relies more on fat for fuel. This mechanism slows the rate of glycogen use.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/4...-source-when-aerobic-exercise-lasts-how-long/

Every cyclist should have the interest in improving his own lipid power: increasing fats consumption at medium intensities allows the rider to spare precious glycogen stores, saving them for the highest efforts or the final part of the race.

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=50

“Bonking” have hit all bicycle racers at one time or another, and every great champion has felt their effect at least once. From Coppi to Merckx, from Anquetil to Hinault, from Ullrich to Armstrong, with more or less disastrous results.

All these crises can be traced to a single cause: exhaustion of hepatic and muscular glycogen reserves. About 100 g of glycogen are stored in the liver to maintain a constant blood sugar level (glycemia), essential to correct brain function.

But a proper intake of lipids in the diet, along with an appropriate training strategy, leads to better use of fats as fuel, therefore reserving the glycogen for the end of the race.

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=37

Since the maximum amount of glycogen that can be stored in the muscles for an athlete of 70 kg is around 700-800g, it is difficult to explain how an athlete can run for 42 km at 16 km/h with glycogen stores almost totally depleted by the previous cycling performance.

Running at this speed requires an oxygen consumption of 53ml/kg/min, which corresponds to 70% of the average VO2max value of elite athletes (VO2max = 75ml/kg/min): impossible to hold this intensity of effort without a significant contribution of CHO as fuel.

In order to be able to realize such performance at the end of an IronMan, the triathlete must have a lipid power (see article 53x12.com) definitely higher than other elite athletes, with values &#8203]

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=article&id=110

Richard Virenque confirms himself as one of the best endurance athletes of the peloton: more than 200 km of getaway, 4000 m of total elevation climbed at an average of 40 km/h!

His engine is not so powerful, but an optimal use and distribution of the fuel allows him to maintain a constantly elevated intensity for many hours.

Together with a perhaps too generous Axel Merckx for 130 km, the French rider gave his best in the last 2 hours of the stage: while Axel ran out of fuel (read: glycogen), Virenque's metabolism, privileging the use of fat as energetic source, allowed him to spare glycogen stores for the final part of the race.

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=50

 

[peterst6906]

I heard a rumor from within the scientific research community that a certain yellow jersey rider and his team are using ketone treatments

If you heard a rumour within the research community that would require 2 things:

1. That you are actually part of a scientific research community
2. That the research community (there is no single community) would have to be working with Sky and directly researching the performance enhancing benefits of this approach.

I'll call total BS on both counts.

The most recent article cited in the webpage is from 2003 and it's a secondary school information page, not a page about leading edge research. The original article is from Science News in 2003, which is neither recent, nor peer reviewed. It's a popular science journal (the scientific equivalent of popular mechanics) - widely read, but not a primary source of research papers.

The author isn't even a research scientist. He's a journalist (http://www.benharder.com/).

The only real conclusion I can draw is that this is just another troll thread and not based on any real knowledge.

 

[MizunoMX20]

I heard a rumor from within the scientific research community that a certain yellow jersey rider and his team are using ketone treatments to enhance their performance... ?

I somewhere read last week that Sky (at least during training) eat almost no carbs, except for during the actual exercise.

After training they would eat only high quality proteins, and also quite a lot of fat in the the form of fish oil and olive oil. And huge bowls of vegetables.

I understand that this type of diet might lead to fat being used up until a higher intensity level during training. To be more specific, an athlete might normally switch to carbs as primary source of fuel at 65% of his maximum heart rate. However, by changing metabolism, the body might learn to start using carbs as a primary source of fuel at 75% of max intensity. Up until that point, fat is used as fuel.

This is of course preferred for the endurance athlete, because this would allow carb stores (glycogen) to remain intact until the point where it really matters in a race i.e. the final part. Athletes then go to full intensity and have larger glycogen stores available than they would otherwise.

This type of diet makes quite a bit of sense IMO. But it however cannot explain why (1) Froome responds so much better than the rest of his teammates, and (2) it cannot explain his giant leap in performance from halfway 2011 to after that in any way.

 

[taiwan]

Indeed Froome looks like a guy who subsists on nothing but deep fried butter.

 

[centri]

So basically they have gone from a HCLF diet to a LCHF diet to train fat burning over carb burning? Or you think that they have access to these special not-very-stable ketones?

If you poke around Twitter you will find that BMC is also on the LCHF train...

 

[centri]

Indeed Froome looks like a guy who subsists on nothing but deep fried butter.

Witty, but seriously: try going low-carb high-fat and see where it gets you.

 

[taiwan]

Witty, but seriously: try going low-carb high-fat and see where it gets you.

Yeah it was purely a humourous comment, I wasn't trying to rubbish the idea.

 

[centri]

Yeah it was purely a humourous comment, I wasn't trying to rubbish the idea.

Yeah, sorry, too much caffein made me get out my internet police badge.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yeah, sorry, too much caffein made me get out my internet police badge.

Ooohhh shiny!!

 

[taiwan]

Yeah, sorry, too much caffein made me get out my internet police badge.

I have done that on occasion

 

[Jack (6 ch)]

So basically they have gone from a HCLF diet to a LCHF diet to train fat burning over carb burning? Or you think that they have access to these special not-very-stable ketones?

If you poke around Twitter you will find that BMC is also on the LCHF train...

That would be LCHP (lo carb/ hi protein) otherwise known as the Atkins Diet.

Starve the body of carbs, it burns fat. Great for weight loss, but I question whether, in isolation, it's enough for a pro sportsman in any type of event?

 

[centri]

That would be LCHP (lo carb/ hi protein) otherwise known as the Atkins Diet.

Starve the body of carbs, it burns fat. Great for weight loss, but I question whether, in isolation, it's enough for a pro sportsman in any type of event?

While I've only skimmed the article twice now, it seems they are not talking about atkins, but rather...

There is one medical condition in which ketones find proven, if limited, application. Since the 1920s, a ketosis-inducing diet has been used to treat some cases of severe childhood epilepsy. This high-fat, low-protein, low-carb regimen shifts the body's main fuel supply from glucose to ketones and fatty acids. This ketogenic diet is more extreme than the high-protein Atkins diet, which produces ketones in urine but not necessarily in the blood, says Veech.

I would imagine that they would want to keep PRO levels at 2gr/kg of bodyweight per day, and then shift the energy source. That's why I went with HCLF versus LCHF. Its also the method I use, but I'm no pro cyclist (except on the internet )

 

[Cloxxki]

That would be LCHP (lo carb/ hi protein) otherwise known as the Atkins Diet.

Starve the body of carbs, it burns fat. Great for weight loss, but I question whether, in isolation, it's enough for a pro sportsman in any type of event?

I've done that. 94kg to 83. Worked like a charm. Ate mostly chicken, ground beef and veggies. And high-protein low card dairy. Unfortunately, the ones you get are also low-fat.
It got me in amazing shape really quick, but training (track&field practice) was really hard. Low energy level. Switching to a pre-training meal of bread and sweet toppings fixed that. Before a 5km race I'd replenish glycogen stores, and gained 2kg in 2 days or so.

I'll say, it's really HARD. Even if you reach your goal, how do you stay there? It's just tiresome to not have anything remotely sweet for so long. You start craving dry bread and pasta.
I'm back at 94kg now, should be 85kg. I race MTB around 81kg back in the day. I am retty quick for a master runner with at least 10kg overweight, but doing it again wil take a LOT of training volume, if I am to stay down there, so I can eat some carbs to keep me sane.

 

[centri]

I do mountain running races of all distances and have been able to stick to high fat, low carb, 1-2gr/kg of bodyweight protein without the suffering that happens when you remove or restrict normal energy sources (FAT, CHO). Its much easier going high fat.

I do use carbs a bit pre & during events (100 cals over for 2-3 hour events) but tend toward Vitargo rather than bread or sweets. No weight gain at all.

 

[Cloxxki]

I do mountain running races of all distances and have been able to stick to high fat, low carb, 1-2gr/kg of bodyweight protein without the suffering that happens when you remove or restrict normal energy sources (FAT, CHO). Its much easier going high fat.

I do use carbs a bit pre & during events (100 cals over for 2-3 hour events) but tend toward Vitargo rather than bread or sweets. No weight gain at all.

Which fats do you take to replace the missing carbs? All the easy high protein low carb stuff is low fat...

 

[Willy_Voet]

I would not consume extra ketones as part of my diet. Far more likely you suffer from the side effects such as protein cross linking.

Fingernail polish remover used to have acetone (dimethyl ketone) in it (some brands might still), but it is not advised for pregnant or nursing women. Paint strippers may have MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) in them if you'd like.

But I'd be worried about the potential reactivity that you see with formaldehyde, which is used as an embalming agent or fixative for tissue. Formaldehyde is far more reactive, but if you consume huge amounts of ketones, you'd likely see similar cross-linking and denaturating of proteins.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I can't imagine any of these guys are in nutritional ketosis. Everyone needs glycogen for higher intensity efforts and a ketogenic diet is just too damn low in carbs.

 

[Cloxxki]

I can't imagine any of these guys are in nutritional ketosis. Everyone needs glycogen for higher intensity efforts and a ketogenic diet is just too damn low in carbs.

Especially prolonged aerobic efforts I believe require the carbs in glycogen stores.
When I was having this bad smell from my mouth, and feeling weak in track practice, in fact my top sprint speeds were just fine. Doing 1k repeats though...gruesome. Took so long to catch my breath after each one, longer than I had scheduled rest in between. General weak feeling.

To do a TdF, you need to eat sick amounts of carbs to survive even to train for it. So I also don't really see it.

 

[vedrafjord]

Especially prolonged aerobic efforts I believe require the carbs in glycogen stores.
When I was having this bad smell from my mouth, and feeling weak in track practice, in fact my top sprint speeds were just fine. Doing 1k repeats though...gruesome. Took so long to catch my breath after each one, longer than I had scheduled rest in between. General weak feeling.

Yep. In my harder-living days I'd regularly wake up hungover at the weekend, and would go for a cycle as some kind of misguided penance. I'd generally go up the mountains and push and push until I could push no longer, then turn the bike around and freewheel all the way home.

I never felt any dramatic point when I suddenly bonked, but often my sweat would smell of ammonia, and once I was wearing a black cotton t-shirt and left it in the laundry basket for a few days after I got home - when I eventually went to put it in the wash, a few parts of it had turned orange.

For a small fee I'm willing to share my knowledge with Dave Brailsford, although looking at Kiryienka on stage 9 last week they might already be using this approach.

 

[Almeisan]

ketosis = bonking