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Leinders interview April 2011

Oct 16, 2010
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Interview from April 2011 when he was working for Sky. (Iirc Sky hired him at the end of 2010.)

wielrennen.startpagina.nl/prikbord/16069719/geert-leinders-was-bepalend-bij-rabobank

Leinders is refreshingly honest about his role at Rabo and Sky and doping in cycling.
He basically makes a complete mockery of 'new'/clean cycling and marginal gains.

Original is in Dutch, but find below a (slightly smoothed) google translation (boldfaced the parts that stood out for me):

-----------
Doping Problems, the new cycling or Anglo-Saxon influences in the peloton? To Geert Leinders it's all secondary to one thing: ,, The game," said the Belgian cycling doctor in Ghent restaurant Warempel. ,,That's what fascinates me. It started when I was a medical student, and after 25 years I'm still fascinated by the game. Everything else around it really does not interest me."

Leinders (54) said goodbye in late 2009 after fifteen years as doctor of the Rabobank team, only to return this season, surprisingly at British Sky. ,,My departure at Rabo has been interpreted by many people as a final farewell," he says. ,,but that was never my intention. Since 2005 I've been doing cultural sciences studies at the university. I wanted to graduate and had to finish some courses. So it was a good time for me to take a break."

His departure was silent, as Leinders worked for years in silence at the Rabobank team. Others will tell you that as a doctor and trainer he was a very decisive factor behind the success of Michael Boogerd and Erik Dekker. ,,Until 2003 I had a very decisive role, until the departure of Jan Raas. But with the new management around Theo de Rooij I became less and less relevant."

The outside world linked the reduced influence of Leinders to the Rasmussen-affair. The Danish yellow jersey was taken from the Tour in 2007 by sponsor Rabobank because he lied about his whereabouts in June, when he was untraceable for doping inspectors. Director De Rooij was replaced by banker Harold Knebel. Leinders, just like team leader Erik Breukink, was exposed to strong criticism and could no longer be part of the management of the team. Never thought about resigning? "I'm not going to say anything about that. Too personal. Theo de Rooij is a good friend of mine. That friendship could suffer under the statements I would like to make about it. "

He doesn't blame De Rooij for anything. "Theo just took his political responsibility, and put himself offside because of that". I did not feel happy about it, it was not a pleasant time. But what was my share and interest in that whole situation? When a rider rides well and you say it's your job, you also get the *** when it ends badly. But I never said that. Anyways, I think the involvement of team doctors in cycling should not be exaggerated. "

For Leinders the final balance of the Rabobank team is positive. ,,It was the fifteen best years of my life, between 35 and 50, an important period in a career. I have so many happy memories that I want to keep. After 2007, many things changed for the team and for me, especially outside. But I have no reason to be sour about anything."

After almost 25 years as team doctor in the traditional European cycling culture he now faces the acclaimed Anglo-Saxon approach of British Team Sky. "There are more similarities than differences. The larger team budgets and sponsors from outside the European culture, that has been the big change in cycling. More than the so-called Anglo-Saxon approach. Teams are increasingly engaging in a business corporate structure, rather than depending on the experience, expertise and enthusiasm of individuals. So you get a different model in which cycling teams are regulated. You can see that with teams like HTC, Garmin and Sky."

Whether that is better? "What do you do with Philippe Gilbert? He is with Omega Pharma-Lotto in the old model and quite successful in recent weeks. And where was HTC? Wonderful business model, all new, brought in many new things from outside of cycling. But I have not seen them, they were never pronouncedly present. I mean to say: it is the winners who decide what is the right culture to lead a team."

With Sky, Leinders limits himself to the role of team doctor. "I feel comfortable in that role. But more and more you turn into a company doctor, rather than a sports doctor, which in today's cycling are no longer part of the team structure. If a rider feels he must have someone like that [i.e. a personal sports doctor], then he should look outside the team. For the image of the sponsor that is a good thing. Whether it is good for the health of the cyclist, is something else. "

The International Cycling Union UCI wants to limit the contribution of the team doctors even further by a total ban on injections. "I think it is a good discouragement. But in the Giro, for instance, now I cannot give any medical treatment to a rider in shock? I cannot do my job responsibly. And who will control such a ban? Then you have to hold raids in hotels, looking for products that are not even on the doping list."

Superfluous, Leinders finds it [the ban on needles]. "Because of the improved controls and test nowadays there are better possibilities to maintain a level playing field. Just look at what they can find nowadays, in minute concentrations. The improved labs ensure that cycling is better in my mind with regard to the abuse of products. Controllable, scientific, same for everyone. The rest is cosmetics."

Doping-free sport? "Look at the Giro: plenty of mountains that go over 2,000 meters. Sport is increasingly about spectacle. The balance between higher spectacle and clean sport is becoming untenable. It is not salable that you have a squad every year that is cleaner, but climbing higher every year with speeds up. Then you get believers and non-believers. But the vast majority of the audience does not care about it. Just as no one interested in Real-Barcelona wonders how big the debt of both clubs is, and whether that is fair to Anderlecht or Ajax."

Solving the doping problem is impossible, says Leinders. "Politicians or administrators say: if you want to solve it, then it can be solved. As if it is a choice. Who does not want it solved, is a bad guy. But that is far from the truth. You do not choose, it's a fait accompli. I've seen it happen in the nineties. Then there was a product [epo, Ed.] that one could not detect. I was there, the product was there. I cannot erase it. I've always thought carefully about how to deal with it. That's the only thing you can do. Zero tolerance is politics, it has nothing to do with cycling."

The new cycling? "Nonsense, innovation has always been there. Think of it as shedding your skin. The snake gets a new skin, but underneath it remains the same snake. He takes his past and his problems along with him into the present. Now people think its all gone in one go. But that's not the case. I was recently asked to participate in a TV program titled: "How clean will the 2011 Tour be?" Now I'm really not going to participate in that."
Right, so that's Geert Leinders basically saying "Sorry guys, but doping is part of the game, better get over it, quickly".

For comparison, Sky's hiring of Leinders as recounted in Moore's "Mastermind":
books.google.pl/books?id=LfmfBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT52&dq=leinders+rabobank&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Y06WVd_ZIee6ygOnxbzoBw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=leinders%20rabobank&f=false
"Geert was really very strongly anti-doping"
#Pulltheotherone

Out of curiosity, is there anyone who still gives Sky's (Walsh/Moore's) version of the hiring of Leinders any kind of credibility?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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well done snipey

there are a lot of gatekeepers in cycling.


or aren't they gatekeepers, are they just offering fans a willing succour mom teet to suck on, a comfort blanket? The comfort blanket is emperors clothes, and the fans willingly dress in emperors clothes, cos the weather is warm on the canary islands and spain.

#snipeySENSES
 
Oct 16, 2010
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blackcat said:
or aren't they gatekeepers, are they just offering fans a willing succour mom teet to suck on, a comfort blanket? The comfort blanket is emperors clothes, and the fans willingly dress in emperors clothes, cos the weather is warm on the canary islands and spain.
yeah, i can go with that, sums it up nicely :D
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Also found this from 2006 where Leinders is interviewed with his friend and colleague Yvan Van Mol (another exposed doping doc, most will know him. If not, see dopeology.org) by the Dutch (or Belgian?) cycling author Hans Vandeweghe.
So the interview is from 2006, shortly after the Fuentes scandal broke.
These quotes stand out imo:

Vandeweghe: "Every year there's a new doping scandal"
Van Mol: "Yes, so a certain degree of scepticism is normal"
Leinders: "But doping or the suspicion of doping shouldn't take anything away from certain performances, such as winning the Tour de France seven times"
(...)
Leinders: "[but] the effect of doping on the performance is negligible.
Van Mol: "I do not quite agree. Before EPO, doping was mainly for recovery. EPO actually made you ride faster."
Leinders: "That's correct. But what I mean is, (...) we shouldn't make doping bigger than it is. It's not one of the big problems of mankind. Every week 250,000 people die of starvation. THAT is a huge problem."

For the record, the interview appears in Vandeweghe's 2013 monography about cycling and doping (although from what i can tell it only scratches the surface). Here's the link to the google preview of that book: books.google.pl/books?id=oV6YIyPOF-gC&pg=PT1&dq=Hans+Vandeweghe+%E2%80%9CWie+gelooft+die+renners+nog?%E2%80%9D&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMI2Lqkoo30xgIVJYpyCh1uvgV0#v=onepage&q=leinders&f=false
 
Has Brailsford ever been asked by any journalist to reconcile these comments with the decision to employ Leinders? What about Walsh?

It seems totally inconceivable that Sky were unaware of the views held by Leinders.
 
Solving the doping problem is impossible, says Leinders. "Politicians or administrators say: if you want to solve it, then it can be solved. As if it is a choice. Who does not want it solved, is a bad guy. But that is far from the truth. You do not choose, it's a fait accompli. I've seen it happen in the nineties. Then there was a product [epo, Ed.] that one could not detect. I was there, the product was there. I cannot erase it. I've always thought carefully about how to deal with it. That's the only thing you can do. Zero tolerance is politics, it has nothing to do with cycling."

The new cycling? "Nonsense, innovation has always been there. Think of it as shedding your skin. The snake gets a new skin, but underneath it remains the same snake. He takes his past and his problems along with him into the present. Now people think its all gone in one go. But that's not the case. I was recently asked to participate in a TV program titled: "How clean will the 2011 Tour be?" Now I'm really not going to participate in that."

Sounds like Leinders interview at Sky, he said all the right things to be hired.
 
''The new cycling? "Nonsense, innovation has always been there.''

How does this tie in with Sky's marginal gains *** of new age methods such as the Nutella, the pillow cases, avoiding red meat, the smoothies etc etc.

There are a lot of questions for Walsh to ask Brailsford now.
 
Re:

ontheroad said:
''The new cycling? "Nonsense, innovation has always been there.''

How does this tie in with Sky's marginal gains ****** of new age methods such as the Nutella, the pillow cases, avoiding red meat, the smoothies etc etc.

There are a lot of questions for Walsh to ask Brailsford now.

Walsh won't be asking anything, he just makes up lies and passes it off as copy.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
ontheroad said:
''The new cycling? "Nonsense, innovation has always been there.''

How does this tie in with Sky's marginal gains ****** of new age methods such as the Nutella, the pillow cases, avoiding red meat, the smoothies etc etc.

There are a lot of questions for Walsh to ask Brailsford now.

Walsh won't be asking anything, he just makes up lies and passes it off as copy.
Walsh' about-face is one of the most amazing turn arounds I've ever seen in a person's profile.
He's reached sell-out levels previously unknown to me and most of mankind.
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

sniper said:
thehog said:
ontheroad said:
''The new cycling? "Nonsense, innovation has always been there.''

How does this tie in with Sky's marginal gains ****** of new age methods such as the Nutella, the pillow cases, avoiding red meat, the smoothies etc etc.

There are a lot of questions for Walsh to ask Brailsford now.

Walsh won't be asking anything, he just makes up lies and passes it off as copy.
Walsh' about-face is one of the most amazing turn arounds I've ever seen in a person's profile.
He's reached sell-out levels previously unknown to me and most of mankind.

Walsh's transformation is equal to Froome's. A perfect match!
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re:

The Hitch said:
Wow. Another amazing find sniper.

Some inconvenient truths there. Bet plenty of lurkers pretend they don't see it.

first time lurker, long time caller,

<edited by mods>
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re: Re:

[quote="thehogWalsh won't be asking anything, he just makes up lies and passes it off as copy.[/quote] #pleonasm but I prefer the malaprop of neoplasm
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re:

ontheroad said:
Has Brailsford ever been asked by any journalist to reconcile these comments with the decision to employ Leinders? What about Walsh?

It seems totally inconceivable that Sky were unaware of the views held by Leinders.

the premise is the Brailsford i) will say the truth; ii) can tell the truth not handcuffed by circumstance and iii) he would willingly divulge the truth and be a martyr?

your question of your own paradox should answer itself, Dave Brailsford willingly entered the sport, was completely aware of this barrier to entry posed to some with a different ethic.

People, lets say Betsy, she says it is a moral issue. But it is far more complicated than this, taking pharmaceutical support is not black and white, and I think the term morality has been devolved moot by religion, when they give rules they call a morality, which is just part of a society's organising principles. Ethics and values are far better terms for me.

You don't have to enjoy cycling as a competitive sport, as participant, in one sphere of the sport. This is an external locus of influence. Extrinsic motivators. Why does one have to watch a three week race in France, or a classic one day race in Belgium, to believe that race exists as raison d'etre of their sporting ambition?

The contradiction, Brailsford is never gonna tell you the truth as you see it. And I recognise this truth. The A team and Tour team, is highly charged, they have great intra tour doping logistics, they have political influence and political support, they will be protected like USPS circa early 2000s.

How just shall Brailsford answer your question?

He answers the question just like the conundrum you pose. The dilemma and contradiction cannot find answer that adequately sates you.

And this semi-incoherent reply, also goes to the concern over doping as ethical question. One cannot give a simple political answer, a succourMom[sic] answer that gives you succour[sic]
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re:

ebandit said:
...is this anything that was not already known?

since more detail has emerged re activities at rabobank.......now

what about team sky?

Mark L
Murdoch has all the journalists on his payroll

see the post from helmutroole on stratifying the media, well, you still need some media to do the job, and if ArmstrongStapletonWieselKnaggsMcCormick had not decided to sue David Walsh and Sunday Times, just p'raps Albergotti and OConnell at WSJ are called off the dogs[sic], and SI's Juliet Macur gets called off, and Birotte never gets the brief from Jeff Novitsky, and how is this, Jeff Novitsky went to an even better cesspool in the UFC mixed martial aarts when folks try and kill their competitor, who... is trying to kill them too, ofcourse they will be on CJC1295 and other peptides which are better than roids so Bolt now runs 9.5
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re:

ebandit said:
...is this anything that was not already known?
The interview wasnt known to me yet, and apparently to many others either.

But even if it was already known, Sky's PR managers (Walsh, Swart) just seem to want to brush over it and pretend it (Leinders) didnt happen and so it's well worth repeating.
Swart even said "there's absolutely nothing on Sky" in that podcast he did with Tucker.
lol.

And whatever happened to the investigation into Leinders?
Leinders' chapter on Rabo has been written and closed. About his time at Sky we've only heard lies and half-truths.
I reckon any half-decent investigative journalist should be able to find shiploads of new info on this story.
But libel and omerta laws are of overriding importance.

blackcat said:
...
Murdoch has all the journalists on his payroll
in-ffing-deed.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

ebandit said:
sniper said:
ebandit said:
...is this anything that was not already known?
The interview wasnt known to me yet, and apparently to many others either.

true....but we heard lienders stance at rabobank change from

'supporting riders doping to maintain health' to 'running doping programme'

so it was already known lienders was not anti doping...

Mark L
sure, but importantly the interview is *from his time at Sky*.
Brailsford/Sky's argument has been along the lines of "he was really antidoping when he was with us at Sky", tacitly implying some sort of change had occurred in Leinders' attitude going from Rabo to Sky (nicely in tune with the 'culture change in cycling' alleged by jv and walsh and the like :rolleyes: )
Of course every clear thinking person knows it's BS, but this 2011 interview cements it.
 
Mar 25, 2013
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Re: Re:

TheSpud said:
ebandit said:
i may be off target but my thought remains........'what job was leinders paid to do

at team sky?'.........

Mark L

Explore grey area techniques in my view.

I'm interested in Alan Farrell. Last year near the end of the Tour and after he left the team, he wrote a column in the ST and said he was open to discuss with journalists any questions they want answered. This column was one directed to the doubters.

I would like to know has anyone taken up on that or is even remotely interested in doing so.