Teams & Riders Lotto Dstny Cycling Team

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Look I'm not going to keep repeating myself. This is dumb. I simply think focussing on riding a lot of one day races is way better for getting points than letting your - let's be honest - mediocre climbers ride some smaller stage races to get a top 5. In an ideal world, you combine both, but with them being obligated to ride WT stage races and having a lot of "non fit riders" this is simply impossible. They would need to ride a triple schedule almost every week and that's just unrealistic. Noone is saying those climbers are going to get more points in WT stage races than in the smaller ones.



Cofidis and Arkea get a massive amount of points in french one day races (look at Becanson/doubs) for example, not that many in stage races (same for Wanty before this season).
People are focussing way too much on their so called bad scheduling, when the real reason they're in throuble is simply because they're giving Gilbert 4 mil for 3 years when he doesn't give you anything back. That and Ewan not performing because of bad luck primarely.

De Gendt is popular because of his attacking style, but he doesn't have the legs to do that anymore. He's nothing more than a dom right now. I think he calls it quits at the end of the season.

The thing is, that a small one week GC race is almost a certainty to score points if you send the right riders. A one day race the exact opposite. Guys like Van Gils, Cras, Moniquet are useless in those one day races for the most part, and will likely be useless in a big GT as well. They could be very useful in smaller GC races though.

Getting relegated will cost them more than participating in a few more races. They have a development team, they could send some of those guys if they don't have enough support riders.

 

[Samamba]

The thing is, that a small one week GC race is almost a certainty to score points if you send the right riders. A one day race the exact opposite. Guys like Van Gils, Cras, Moniquet are useless in those one day races for the most part, and will likely be useless in a big GT as well. They could be very useful in smaller GC races though.

Getting relegated will cost them more than participating in a few more races. They have a development team, they could send some of those guys if they don't have enough support riders.

I still don't think you understand my point. The guys you mention (apart from Van Gils probably) are not the ones who are ment to take points in the one day races (right now atleast, they'll have some after the Tour and at the end of the year). They need to ride the WT stage races because a) they want it, b) so that riders who are guaranteed to get points in a lot of one day races in May and June like De Lie, Vermeersch, Van Moer, Wellens, etc. don't need to ride them and have a strong team around them in those races. Someone needs to ride Romandie, Giro, Dauphiné, Suisse and they're the chosen ones. They are not counting on them to get a lot of points in those races, they are counting on their real leaders to get a massive amount of points in the smaller one day races and something like Belgium Tour.

And no they can't use their development riders because they were dumb enough to not make their u23 team a continental team before the season. They chose to stay a CLUB team, meaning they can't use those riders in .1 or .Pro races for the WT team. That combined with starting the season with only 27 riders (knowing guys like Malecki and Vervloesem aren't even healthy enough to do a lot of races) was one of the worst mistakes Lelangue made.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I still don't think you understand my point. The guys you mention (apart from Van Gils probably) are not the ones who are ment to take points in the one day races (right now atleast, they'll have some after the Tour and at the end of the year). They need to ride the WT stage races because a) they want it, b) so that riders who are guaranteed to get points in a lot of one day races in May and June like De Lie, Vermeersch, Van Moer, Wellens, etc. don't need to ride them and have a strong team around them in those races. Someone needs to ride Romandie, Giro, Dauphiné, Suisse and they're the chosen ones. They are not counting on them to get a lot of points in those races, they are counting on their real leaders to get a massive amount of points in the smaller one day races and something like Belgium Tour.

And no they can't use their development riders because they were dumb enough to not make their u23 team a continental team before the season. They chose to stay a CLUB team, meaning they can't use those riders in .1 or .Pro races for the WT team. That combined with starting the season with only 27 riders (knowing guys like Malecki and Vervloesem aren't even healthy enough to do a lot of races) was one of the worst mistakes Lelangue made.

About your 2nd paragraph, welp, then they're even dumber than i thought. Lelangue can't be the only one who ''forgot'' that, can he. Did nobody tell him? Did he refuse to? They knew this would be a critical season regarding UCI points and with riders still out due to covid, you really have to be one giant ass to overlook how important it could be to be able to move some development riders into certain races.

About your first paragraph. No, i know you (or Lotto) don't expect Moniquet or Cras to go after the points in those one day races. They won't go after points in WT stageraces either (or not a lot). Which is exactly why i'm advocating to send them to races where they CAN score points. Obviously, without being able to move up some U23 riders, i understand how it could prove difficult.

 

[Samamba]

About your 2nd paragraph, welp, then they're even dumber than i thought. Lelangue can't be the only one who ''forgot'' that, can he. Did nobody tell him? Did he refuse to? They knew this would be a critical season regarding UCI points and with riders still out due to covid, you really have to be one giant ass to overlook how important it could be to be able to move some development riders into certain races.

About your first paragraph. No, i know you (or Lotto) don't expect Moniquet or Cras to go after the points in those one day races. They won't go after points in WT stageraces either (or not a lot). Which is exactly why i'm advocating to send them to races where they CAN score points. Obviously, without being able to move up some U23 riders, i understand how it could prove difficult.

They were actually thinking about it at the end of the season, so they knew, but finally they didn't do it for god knows why. I guess it's a money thing as there are literally no other downsides about becoming continental.

 

[Lexman]

some decent points gained this weekend by Crass and De Lie... wonder if they catch up with Israel but Cofidis gained a lot of points with Geschke...

 

[Samamba]

some decent points gained this weekend by Crass and De Lie... wonder if they catch up with Israel but Cofidis gained a lot of points with Geschke...

Pretty sure Cofidis is out of reach already. LTS will ride more than they usually do, but that's still not more than all those French teams including Cofidis. Basically impossible to ride more. LTS will have strong line ups in those smaller one day races (De Lie, Vermeersch, Campenaerts, Wellens, etc) but Cofidis will also be starting with guys like Lafay, Thomas, Zingle, Coquard, Renard and Walsheid when he comes back. Lotto basically needs to win WT races like Benelux, Hamburg, Plouay, Canadian GPs and Ewan Worlds if they actually want to catch them. And that's not going to happen.

Think Lotto's only hope is trying to overtake Israel and keep them behind (not easy as Israel usually takes a lot of points in hilly one day races in the last months of the season) and then hope that Astana folds. Which let's be honest, with the whay they're riding and their financial throubles, is actually possible.

Or BEX or EF needs to completely throw the whole season.

 

[Lexman]

Regarding De Gendt in a belgian magazine he states he suffered from Covid, bronchitis and intestatinal problems, wans't abkle to train during a period so he's not in form for Il Giro will limit his action in a first time to ride for Ewan...

https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20220503_92786042

at least it explaines why he didn'ty score any points at all this year...

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Boom. 20 UCI points IN. DA. PO. CKET!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Boom. 20 UCI points DOWN. DA. DRAIN!

 

[DoYouEvenRideBruh]

That was a complete disaster.

 

[Samamba]

Did Lelangue kill an entire family or what did he do to have such bad karma. Jesus it doesn't stop.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So Gilbert winning the GC in Dunkirk gets them 200 UCI points. That's the same as 2 victories of Ewan in the Giro in case he manages it. It's another example of what i've been saying for the last weeks. The points that are up for grabs for Lotto are the points in the small races. They are nowhere near good enough to score jackpots at big races. Let's hope they see the light before it goes out completely.

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

So Gilbert winning the GC in Dunkirk gets them 200 UCI points. That's the same as 2 victories of Ewan in the Giro in case he manages it. It's another example of what i've been saying for the last weeks. The points that are up for grabs for Lotto are the points in the small races. They are nowhere near good enough to score jackpots at big races. Let's hope they see the light before it goes out completely.

I wouldn't bank on Lelangue seeing the light.
He's the type of guy that crashes his car into a tree and then blaims the Parks departement for planting it.

 

[OlavEH]

So Gilbert winning the GC in Dunkirk gets them 200 UCI points. That's the same as 2 victories of Ewan in the Giro in case he manages it. It's another example of what i've been saying for the last weeks. The points that are up for grabs for Lotto are the points in the small races. They are nowhere near good enough to score jackpots at big races. Let's hope they see the light before it goes out completely.

And there are quite a few 2.Pro races the coming months.

Boucles de la Mayenne and ZLM Tour are suitable for sprinters. Ewan could be a possible GC candidate if the entered here.

Belgium Tour, Tour de Wallonie, Tour of Denmark, Deutschland tour, etc., should be suitable for their hilly riders (Wellens, Gilbert, Kron).

 

[Samamba]

So Gilbert winning the GC in Dunkirk gets them 200 UCI points. That's the same as 2 victories of Ewan in the Giro in case he manages it. It's another example of what i've been saying for the last weeks. The points that are up for grabs for Lotto are the points in the small races. They are nowhere near good enough to score jackpots at big races. Let's hope they see the light before it goes out completely.

No lol, you were saying they need to do more small stage races with their climbers. Them riding Dunkerque, Morbihan, Tro Bro Leon, Koln, Veenendaal, Antwerp, Wallonie, Kint, etc. has nothing to do with that.

I wouldn't bank on Lelangue seeing the light.
He's the type of guy that crashes his car into a tree and then blaims the Parks departement for planting it.

Obviously he has seeing that their schedule completely changed. They're doing as much one day races as they can with them having to start WT stage races at the same time and without burning out their riders.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

No lol, you were saying they need to do more small stage races with their climbers. Them riding Dunkerque, Morbihan, Tro Bro Leon, Koln, Veenendaal, Antwerp, Wallonie, Kint, etc. has nothing to do with that.

lol? I have said they need to target small races because that's where the points are for them and that they have no riders to take away the points in big races, that they would be riding for chump change (as they proved in the classics). That i suggested small stageraces with their 2nd/3rd-rate climbers was merely an example of that.

 

[Samamba]

lol? I have said they need to target small races because that's where the points are for them and that they have no riders to take away the points in big races, that they would be riding for chump change (as they proved in the classics). That i suggested small stageraces with their 2nd/3rd-rate climbers was merely an example of that.

You made it seem in your previous posts that you thought they were really dumb to drop races like Hungary and Norway for one day races. You were focussing solely on their climbers needing to ride smaller stage races.

Anyways what does it even matter when the team doesn't exist anymore after 2024 cause Lotto can't sponsor anymore..
(probably not true, the state lottery will probably not have the same rules as the private ones).

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You made it seem in your previous posts that you thought they were really dumb to drop races like Hungary and Norway for one day races. You were focussing solely on their climbers needing to ride smaller stage races.

I'm not sure how this could possibly have been confusing for you. Ride smaller races where you have a realistic shot at geting big points (relative to bigger races that have much harder competition in comparison hence less % of getting big points) with the 2nd grade riders at your disposal (which is basically all of Lotto) instead of putting all your eggs into the baskets of races you have zero chances to score big points in. A one day race is a lottery and Lotto has not been good at playing the lottery so far. They basically only have De Lie who can finish one of those races off, and perhaps Wellens, but i doubt he'd be racing those kinds of races anyway. If you don't win those smaller one day races, it's easy to miss out on the big points, you are again left with nothing. When you ride 5 day stageraces, it comes down to consistency and it's less of a lottery. They have the riders for those types of races.

In order to get the same amount of points in Liège as he did in Dunkirk, Gilbert would have had to finish top 5. That was never gonna happen.
In order for Van Gils to get the same amount of points in the TDF as he did in the Saoudi Tour, he would have to finish top 12. That's also never gonna happen.

Extrapolate that to their riders, indeed like Cras, Moniquet, Vanhoucke etc, whom i think have 0% chance to deliver points in serious WT races (one-day or stagerace, doesn't matter).

 

[Samamba]

I'm not sure how this could possibly have been confusing for you. Ride smaller races where you have a realistic shot at geting big points (relative to bigger races that have much harder competition in comparison hence less % of getting big points) with the 2nd grade riders at your disposal (which is basically all of Lotto) instead of putting all your eggs into the baskets of races you have zero chances to score big points in. A one day race is a lottery and Lotto has not been good at playing the lottery so far. They basically only have De Lie who can finish one of those races off, and perhaps Wellens, but i doubt he'd be racing those kinds of races anyway. If you don't win those smaller one day races, it's easy to miss out on the big points, you are again left with nothing. When you ride 5 day stageraces, it comes down to consistency and it's less of a lottery. They have the riders for those types of races.

In order to get the same amount of points in Liège as he did in Dunkirk, Gilbert would have had to finish top 5. That was never gonna happen.
In order for Van Gils to get the same amount of points in the TDF as he did in the Saoudi Tour, he would have to finish top 12. That's also never gonna happen.

Extrapolate that to their riders, indeed like Cras, Moniquet, Vanhoucke etc, whom i think have 0% chance to deliver points in serious WT races (one-day or stagerace, doesn't matter).

We have had this discussion already. It is not possible for LTS to ride WT races, small one day races and small stage races. They chose the one day races over the stage races. It's not an "and" story, it's an "or" story. I agree with this strategy, you don't. They have been pretty good in the smaller one day races this season. With De Lie you have a guy who can get a lot of points if you send some strong riders with him to those races. They are doing that. Yes stage races are more about consistency, and yes you need a little bit of luck in one day races, but stage races also means you need to ride 5 or 6 days to get those points. You can do 3 one day races in a week if you want to, meaning waaaay more points if you do good.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

We have had this discussion already. It is not possible for LTS to ride WT races, small one day races and small stage races. They chose the one day races over the stage races. It's not an "and" story, it's an "or" story. I agree with this strategy, you don't. They have been pretty good in the smaller one day races this season. With De Lie you have a guy who can get a lot of points if you send some strong riders with him to those races. They are doing that. Yes stage races are more about consistency, and yes you need a little bit of luck in one day races, but stage races also means you need to ride 5 or 6 days to get those points. You can do 3 one day races in a week if you want to, meaning waaaay more points if you do good.

No, because you only have 1 guy who can get big points in those one day races, and you have 4 guys who can get big points in 5 day races. So like i already explained to you, Cras, Moniquet, Van Gils (in terms of getting WT points in big or 1 day races) are useless. You have them at your disposal, use them. Send all of them to a small stagerace and you have a realistic shot at putting all of them inside the top 10. So you are looking at it the wrong way, it's not 5 days vs 1 day. It's 5 days with 4 guys who can get points based on consistency, vs 1 day with 1 guy based on luck.

So since you seem to recall our earlier conversation now, i'm still left wondering how what i said before was not clear that you would have to ''lol'' when i basically repeated the same sentiment/principle. Put the riders that can only get points in certain races, in those races, even if it means you can't put them in other races. You keep repeating that ''they can't'' and i'm sure it'd be difficult, but i'm also sure you could manage. This is a code red situation for Lotto, but it appears people haven't caught on yet. If it means sending Ewan to all GT's for only 7 days, then they should consider doing that. If sending their worst riders to the big WT races (where chances to score points with their best riders are slim to none anyway) so that they can send their best riders to the races where they CAN score points, they have to consider that. Time to start thinking out of the box.

 

[Samamba]

No, because you only have 1 guy who can get big points in those one day races, and you have 4 guys who can get big points in 5 day races. So like i already explained to you, Cras, Moniquet, Van Gils (in terms of getting WT points in big or 1 day races) are useless. You have them at your disposal, use them. Send all of them to a small stagerace and you have a realistic shot at putting all of them inside the top 10. So you are looking at it the wrong way, it's not 5 days vs 1 day. It's 5 days with 4 guys who can get points based on consistency, vs 1 day with 1 guy based on luck.

So since you seem to recall our earlier conversation now, i'm still left wondering how what i said before was not clear that you would have to ''lol'' when i basically repeated the same sentiment/principle. Put the riders that can only get points in certain races, in those races, even if it means you can't put them in other races. You keep repeating that ''they can't'' and i'm sure it'd be difficult, but i'm also sure you could manage. This is a code red situation for Lotto, but it appears people haven't caught on yet. If it means sending Ewan to all GT's for only 7 days, then they should consider doing that. If sending their worst riders to the big WT races (where chances to score points with their best riders are slim to none anyway) so that they can send their best riders to the races where they CAN score points, they have to consider that. Time to start thinking out of the box.

Well I couldn't disagree more.
I thought it was funny that you made a "look I'm right" post when winning Dunkerque with Gilbert wasn't something you were talking about before. I was under the impression you just ment sending their climbers to smaller stage races, which I simply don't think is a strat that would work better than the one they're doing now.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Well I couldn't disagree more.
I thought it was funny that you made a "look I'm right" post when winning Dunkerque with Gilbert wasn't something you were talking about before. I was under the impression you just ment sending their climbers to smaller stage races, which I simply don't think is a strat that would work better than the one they're doing now.

I was saying ''look i'm right'' because, look, i was right. The fact i didn't specifically mention this race or this rider is hardly relevant.

You disagree because you would like them to get relegated then?

Here's the situation:

1. They are in dire need of UCI points.
2. Their entire team has basically only one proven WT point grabber, Ewan. De Gendt/Gilbert are declining and unlikely to score a big/WT win anymore. Wellens/Campenaerts might get some points in La Vuelta stages but unlikely in TDF.
3. De Lie can score big points in smaller 1 day races, but i doubt he's ready for top spot in WT.
4. They have a slew of riders who are not good enough to get points in WT races, who are borderline useless in many other races, but could score big points in small stageraces.
5. The races for Vermeersch to shine have passed. Van Moer could bank them a few points here and there in case he gets back to top form, but it's too little too late.
6. By staying the current course, they need a miracle to avoid relegation.

Here's what will happen when they get relegated:

1. Even more sponsors will leave (they already lost Soudal).
2. Their best riders who can get out of their contract, will leave unless the financial compensation is substantial, which (with sponsors leaving) seems unlikely.
3. Sponsors leaving will likely force them to terminate certain contracts, out of financial reasons, to begin with.
4. And this is a big one. Their best development riders will leave.

They will get sucked into a downward spiral. Sponsors are here because they want brand recognition in the big WT races. With them losing their WT status, they can no longer guarantee sponsors to be at those events. Sponsors will leave. That means the team is left with less financial strength. Also their best riders are no longer certain to be at the big WT events, on top of the team not being able to offer the same wages to those riders. The first team to offer De Lie and/or any other big talent from their development team, a big contract and those guys are gone. The team no longer has the financial needs, nor the long-term stability to ensure those young riders that they are the best alternative. To get an idea of what could happen, you should take a look at what happens to football clubs, when they get relegated to a b-league. Only those with ''big money'' behind them (which Lotto doesn't have), can work their way back. For many teams, it's the beginning of the end.

The repercussions are immense. In order to get out of that downward spiral and return to WT, they will need to spend more money (which they don't/won't have) than they had when they were still WT. Because for a good rider to go to a non-WT team (with no guarantee about the level of his teammates or which WT races he can attend) you need to pay him more than a WT team would need to pay him. And i don't see that happening.

 

[Roku]

Apart from hunting points in order to secure WT status they need to field decent teams in GT.

There's no point in collecting points to save the WT status if you are a total no-show in all the big races. Brand recognition can only be achieved through obtaining something meaningful. They need to find the right balance.

Moreover, you need to hand the riders a decent program. Nobody will want to ride in Lotto if they are given a horrible program just to hunt points.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Apart from hunting points in order to secure WT status they need to field decent teams in GT.

There's no point in collecting points to save the WT status if you are a total no-show in all the big races. Brand recognition can only be achieved through obtaining something meaningful. They need to find the right balance.

Moreover, you need to hand the riders a decent program. Nobody will want to ride in Lotto if they are given a horrible program just to hunt points.

They need to get their priorities straight. What use is it to please current sponsors or riders, when they will lose them anyway the moment they lose their WT status? They could even lose their best mechanics etc. People think this is some trivial matter, but this could have huge consequences. Remaining WT buys them time to fight another day. If need be with new sponsors and new riders. Lotto needs that WT status, because without it they are simply a dime a dozen PC team, fighting to sign mediocre sponsordeals and mediocre riders. When you have that WT status, it makes it much easier to get new sponsors and new riders if needed, to which they can explain the specific/abnormal circumstances this year.

Losing WT status means losing sponsors, top riders and development riders, but also losing the ticket to attract new ones. They don't have a rider like Van der Poel, a superstar who is married to the team, who gets the points needed, who gets the sponsors as well as the other riders lined up to join, and who gets the invites for non WT teams (if necessary). There will not be an easy way back for Lotto. And if they don't change things asap, they will get relegated.

Send the riders to the races where they can get points, or be in immediate and necessary support of such a rider. They have sent entire teams in support of Greipel in the past, leaving their GC podium contender (which they currently don't have) completely isolated to the Tour. Why would they now bring any other team but in direct support of Ewan to the Tour (or Vuelta), for instance?

Over half of all WT teams are starting in Hungary, including some of their direct competitors for relegation. A race where they could get points with riders who are currently not riding. But the team who needs the points most of all, is not attending.

 

[Netserk]

As of now, they would still be guaranteed to ride the Tour (and any WT race) next year. Not exactly an immediate catastrophe for the sponsors.