Masking Agents

[King Boonen]

@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder.

Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder.

Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.

From the link I posted (which is the Dutch version of the 2017 WADA prohibited list, importantly with all products spelled out, unlike the link you posted)

S5. Diuretica en maskerende middelen = Diuretics and masking agents
(...)
Gelatine, gemodificeerd = modified gelatine

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder.

Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.

I'm more interested in where "modified gelatin" appears in Gummi Bears. Whatever "modified gelatin" is...

https://www.haribo.com/enCA/consumer-information/gummies/ingredients.html

Maybe this is one of Sagan's gummies...

 

[yaco]

My question - Accept that modified gelatine is a masking agent and according to Sniper is on the WADA prohibited list - We know that gummy bears are eaten by athletes of all persuasions - So why are there no positive tests ?

 

[Mayo from Mayo]

Re: Sagan Clean?

Don't know what Sniper posted earlier and thought links in another language had to be translated.
However here is the 2017 WADA prohibited list. No mention of gelatin (modified or otherwise).

http://www.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/wada-2017-prohibited-list-en.pdf

 

[Dan2016]

Re: Re:

@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers, finish bottles etc., you've no doubt heard of those. So there might be a motive for masking post-finish.
And well, this being procycling...just saying, while it's definitely mad (we agree), maybe that's procycling for you.

And of course all usual disclaimers apply.

(Leaving Sagan out of this entirely now of course as per mod's request)

Sniper, you got me intrigued there with the 'modified gelatin' thing. I couldn't get that link to tell me anything so I did a quick google. Turns out 'modified gelatin' is indeed considered doping and is banned. Interesting find. But what is 'modified gelatin'? Could it be drug laced (modified) gummy bears (gelatin)? Well, erm, no! Turns out it is an intravenous 'plasma volume expander' of the 'Colloids' variety. It's serious stuff. It's not a packet of little chewy bears.

Your point about riders using finish bottles etc., is a fair one, so you are right of course that riders may still have need to mask. Emphasis on 'may'. I just think it's extremely unlikely the very top riders are still taking that risk. Would be monumentaly stupid for minimal reward vs a big dose of legal options like high-dose caffeine and glucose tablets and whatever else, maybe a nice little pinch of Tramadol.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Quoting fro 2017 WADA code section S5 on diuretics and masking agents:

The following diuretics and masking agents are prohibited, as are other substances with a similar chemical
structure or similar biological effect(s).

Including, but not limited to:
• Desmopressin; probenecid; plasma expanders, e.g. glycerol and intravenous administration of albumin, dextran, hydroxyethyl starch and mannitol;
• Acetazolamide; amiloride; bumetanide; canrenone; chlortalidone; etacrynic acid; furosemide; indapamide; metolazone; spironolactone; thiazides, e.g. bendroflumethiazide, chlorothiazide and hydrochlorothiazide; triamterene and vaptans, e.g. tolvaptan.

Except:
• Drospirenone; pamabrom; and ophthalmic use of carbonic anhydrase inhibitors (e.g. dorzolamide, brinzolamide);
• Local administration of felypressin in dental anaesthesia.


The key point that plasma expanders have to been given via IV. Modified gelatin could act as one (depending on how and what was modified). Oral eating of gummies is not even close to a IV infusion.

Gelatin is a protein. It will be digested as such in the stomach down to peptides and eventually the amino acids.

 

[Netserk]

I vote for renaming the thread "Gummy Bears".

 

[Dan2016]

Re:

I vote for renaming the thread "Gummy Bears".

I formally second that motion.

 

[Irondan]

Not gonna happen.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Thanks for splitting the topic and saving my post

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder.

Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.

From the link I posted (which is the Dutch version of the 2017 WADA prohibited list, importantly with all products spelled out, unlike the link you posted)

S5. Diuretica en maskerende middelen = Diuretics and masking agents
(...)
Gelatine, gemodificeerd = modified gelatine

Sorry no, this bollocks needs to stop. Firstly, the posting of non-English links has been highlighted again and again as a deliberate strategy to mislead. I have given you a link to the actual WADA list, show where it says gelatine is banned.

Secondly the fact that you think a list exists where all products are listed shows how truly clueless you are about how the list actually works. The whole point of half of the wording in the actual list is that you can't have a list where all products are listed.

 

[Dan2016]

Re:

Not gonna happen.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder.

Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.

From the link I posted (which is the Dutch version of the 2017 WADA prohibited list, importantly with all products spelled out, unlike the link you posted)

S5. Diuretica en maskerende middelen = Diuretics and masking agents
(...)
Gelatine, gemodificeerd = modified gelatine

Sorry no, this bollocks needs to stop. Firstly, the posting of non-English links has been highlighted again and again as a deliberate strategy to mislead. I have given you a link to the actual WADA list, show where it says gelatine is banned.

Secondly the fact that you think a list exists where all products are listed shows how truly clueless you are about how the list actually works. The whole point of half of the wording in the actual list is that you can't have a list where all products are listed.

I've only allowed this link to remain because when I open it in my google chrome browser it automatically translates to english. Granted, I didn't spend much time reading it other than to make sure it was in english. If it's mumbo jumbo but in the english language then it will be deleted. If it's comprehensible then it will remain. If anyone is having an issue reading the translation please let me know in a report or PM.

Cheers

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder.

Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.

I'm more interested in where "modified gelatin" appears in Gummi Bears. Whatever "modified gelatin" is...

https://www.haribo.com/enCA/consumer-information/gummies/ingredients.html

Maybe this is one of Sagan's gummies...

Its succinylated gelatin and it's infused intraveinously in solution as a temporary plasma replacement. Isoplex is a product licensed in the U.K.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder.

Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.

From the link I posted (which is the Dutch version of the 2017 WADA prohibited list, importantly with all products spelled out, unlike the link you posted)

S5. Diuretica en maskerende middelen = Diuretics and masking agents
(...)
Gelatine, gemodificeerd = modified gelatine

Sorry no, this bollocks needs to stop. Firstly, the posting of non-English links has been highlighted again and again as a deliberate strategy to mislead. I have given you a link to the actual WADA list, show where it says gelatine is banned.

Secondly the fact that you think a list exists where all products are listed shows how truly clueless you are about how the list actually works. The whole point of half of the wording in the actual list is that you can't have a list where all products are listed.

I've only allowed this link to remain because when I open it in my google chrome browser it automatically translates to english. Granted, I didn't spend much time reading it other than to make sure it was in english. If it's mumbo jumbo but in the english language then it will be deleted. If it's comprehensible then it will remain. If anyone is having an issue reading the translation please let me know in a report or PM.

Cheers

It's not the translation that's the issue. The issue is it is a secondary source in a foreign language. The primary source is freely available in English, I linked it, but it does not contain the words sniper wants it to so he decided to use something else. Sniper claimed that modified gelatin appears on the WADA list. I provided a link to the WADA list which shows it does not.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Got it, thanks for the clarification.

As it's in english elsewhere we will remove the link.

 

[Nick C.]

Where does Gummy Bears = prohibited substances fit on a scale of the Moon landing was faked, the Earth is flat, Elvis is alive etc. ?

 

[Scatto]

Re: Re:

[quote="
It's not the translation that's the issue. The issue is it is a secondary source in a foreign language. The primary source is freely available in English, I linked it, but it does not contain the words sniper wants it to so he decided to use something else. Sniper claimed that modified gelatin appears on the WADA list. I provided a link to the WADA list which shows it does not.

The WADA list is not an exhaustive checklist: there are more substances that are prohibited which are derived from it. The list sniper linked to is the official NADO (Dutch anti-doping authority) interpretation of the WADA code for 2017. Most likely other countries will have almost the same, if not exactly the same checklists. I would say this was good research by sniper.

It will probably not be Haribo's gummy bears that contain masking agent, but self-baked candy with modified gelatin, or bears that are laced. Recent medical literature lists ongoing experiments in nano-medicine using modified gelatin (Google Scholar is your friend). The chemical effects may be sped up, or the trick could be to use saliva at the right moment during the doping control.

Also note that gummy bears contain a lot of sugar and taste good. This is another reason, in my humble opinion, to eat a lot of gummy bears.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

[quote="
It's not the translation that's the issue. The issue is it is a secondary source in a foreign language. The primary source is freely available in English, I linked it, but it does not contain the words sniper wants it to so he decided to use something else. Sniper claimed that modified gelatin appears on the WADA list. I provided a link to the WADA list which shows it does not.

The WADA list is not a checklist: there are more substances that are prohibited which are derived from it. The list sniper linked to is the official NADO (Dutch anti-doping authority) interpretation of the WADA code. Most likely other countries will have almost the same checklists.

If that's so then why didn't he call it the "NADO interpretation of the WADA code"? Instead he said this:

and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.

Seriously, you can't post a link that needs to be translated and call it the WADA prohibited list when in fact it's a link to an altogether different interpretation of the WADA prohibited list.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

[quote="
It's not the translation that's the issue. The issue is it is a secondary source in a foreign language. The primary source is freely available in English, I linked it, but it does not contain the words sniper wants it to so he decided to use something else. Sniper claimed that modified gelatin appears on the WADA list. I provided a link to the WADA list which shows it does not.

The WADA list is not a checklist: there are more substances that are prohibited which are derived from it. The list sniper linked to is the official NADO (Dutch anti-doping authority) interpretation of the WADA code. Most likely other countries will have almost the same checklists.

I am fully aware how the WADA list works thank you very much.

Sniper was attempting to back up the ridiculous accusations that Sagan was using Haribo as a masking agent. He used a Dutch link to obsfucate the fact that a) modified gelatin is not named on the WADA list and b) modified gelatin would would only be banned if it were intraveinously infused as a solution.

 

[Scatto]

Re: Re:

Sniper was attempting to back up the ridiculous accusations that Sagan was using Haribo as a masking agent. He used a Dutch link to obsfucate the fact that a) modified gelatin is not named on the WADA list and b) modified gelatin would would only be banned if it were intraveinously infused as a solution.

I don't know why he used the Dutch link, but I suppose it's because he speaks Dutch. I explained the link between the NADO and WADA above. In the NADO-list, which is easy enough to run through Google Translate, modified gelatin is mentioned. Substances that are only sanctioned when administered intravenously are marked. To me it seems that this is not the case for modified gelatin.

I agree this could be much ado about nothing, but the suspicion is not any more ridiculous than doubts on the hair products used by the Festina riders in the 1990's.

 

[Dan2016]

The Dutch link was valid in my opinion (for what it's worth). 'Plasma expanders' under section S5 in the main english WADA code is 'modified gelatin' under section S5 in the Dutch version. They are the same thing.
But it was the 'modified gelatin' version that was interesting and relevant in the context of the discussion, even though it turned out to be misleading. It's just banter here though, not rigorous academia. I don't see the problem.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re: Re:

[quote="
It's not the translation that's the issue. The issue is it is a secondary source in a foreign language. The primary source is freely available in English, I linked it, but it does not contain the words sniper wants it to so he decided to use something else. Sniper claimed that modified gelatin appears on the WADA list. I provided a link to the WADA list which shows it does not.

The WADA list is not an exhaustive checklist: there are more substances that are prohibited which are derived from it. The list sniper linked to is the official NADO (Dutch anti-doping authority) interpretation of the WADA code for 2017. Most likely other countries will have almost the same, if not exactly the same checklists. I would say this was good research by sniper.

It will probably not be Haribo's gummy bears that contain masking agent, but self-baked candy with modified gelatin, or bears that are laced. Recent medical literature lists ongoing experiments in nano-medicine using modified gelatin (Google Scholar is your friend). The chemical effects may be sped up, or the trick could be to use saliva at the right moment during the doping control.

Also note that gummy bears contain a lot of sugar and taste good. This is another reason, in my humble opinion, to eat a lot of gummy bears.

No as a plasma expander it has to be IV (as in or added to the actual IV fluids). Chewing any amount of modified gelatin is not going to act as a plasma expander, or any masking agent, any more that day beef jerky would.

 

[Catwhoorg]

From drugs.com

What are Plasma expanders

Plasma expanders are agents that have relatively high molecular weight and boost the plasma volume by increasing the osmotic pressure. They are used to treat patients who have suffered hemorrhage or shock. Shock occurs due to reduced blood volume (usually due to hemorrhage) and it is necessary to get the blood volume back to normal as quickly as possible.


For doping, they can be used to adjust various blood parameters to help pass say a Biopassport screen.
Does little to mask a urine analysis of anything.