Masking blood withdrawal?

[arjanh]

I understand how you'd mask a blood transfusion, but how would you mask blood withdrawal? So far I couldn't find anything on the net...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I understand how you'd mask a blood transfusion, but how would you mask blood withdrawal? So far I couldn't find anything on the net...

and how much hgb goes into a withdrawal, roughly?

op: hct and ret are both %s, so your hgb would be the main value to mask, if you needed to. ie training hard leads to drops in hgb, as evidenced in 3wk GTs.

just say you're in a big training block.

 

[benzwire]

Black socks.

 

[arjanh]

Well, isn't something like .5 liter some sort of standard? So that'll be about 10% of your hgb, assuming the blood volume is restored pretty fast. Can you loose that much hgb in training?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Bertagnolli: "He [Ferrari] advised me how to do the transfusions, saying to take out the blood before going to altitude and then putting it back after altitude, so to better justify the changes in haematocrit and reticolytes, etc."

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Well, isn't something like .5 liter some sort of standard? So that'll be about 10% of your hgb, assuming the blood volume is restored pretty fast. Can you loose that much hgb in training?

Riders in 3 week GTs lose 2 Hct points / week for 6 in total (according to Tyler) - which equates to ~2 g/dl of Hgb as Hgb ~= Hct/3.

If you start with 16 g/dl and lose 10% to 14.4, that's certainly explainable by a big block of training, and is less that what is expected in a GT, although I think the expectations from GTs is now 11.5% - either way, it would be explainable.

Micro dosing EPO would help replenish the Hgb quickly, and doing that at altitude would be beneficial, as it muddies the EPO isoforms. Although, micro-dosing EPO escapes detection most of the time anyway.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Water down retics?

I don't think so.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Water down retics?

I don't think so.

Thanks.

Still getting my head around the measures. Retics% is vs total RBCs, Hgb and Hct are vs total liquid volume.

So you can't "water down" retic count, you water down Hgb or Hct but retic would remain static.

If it's high, you would expect EPO or similar, or some other theory like they left the sample in the car for the day and the retics all died...

 

[ElChingon]

I understand how you'd mask a blood transfusion, but how would you mask blood withdrawal? So far I couldn't find anything on the net...

Well not sure if you were ever a teenager but as some teenagers I hear get into these intense kissing sessions and well if they concentrate on one spot it tends to draw blood to that spot and even pool there leaving a dark mark. So to not be noted as to of been kissing for extended amounts of time or be made fun of by fellow teenagers to no end there is known, well maybe unknown to you way to reduce this dark spot caused by the pooling of blood at the surface of the skin, we won't get into where they've been know to be commonly seen. You get a cold (ice cold) metal object, for example a spoon or a rounded but with an edge metal object and then rub it with some pressure but not too much (practice makes perfect) in one direction over and over repeating the cooling process to keep the metal object cold. I also hear some adults have this happen to them

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Well not sure if you were ever a teenager but as some teenagers I hear get into these intense kissing sessions and well if they concentrate on one spot it tends to draw blood to that spot and even pool there leaving a dark mark. So to not be noted as to of been kissing for extended amounts of time or be made fun of by fellow teenagers to no end there is known, well maybe unknown to you way to reduce this dark spot caused by the pooling of blood at the surface of the skin, we won't get into where they've been know to be commonly seen. You get a cold (ice cold) metal object, for example a spoon or a rounded but with an edge metal object and then rub it with some pressure but not too much (practice makes perfect) in one direction over and over repeating the cooling process to keep the metal object cold. I also hear some adults have this happen to them

Ah so you're talking masking the bruising present when blood withdrawal occurs. We call those marks "love bites" here in Aus.

I think the OP is asking - how do you mask the hematological markers (lowered Hgb) post-withdrawal.

 

[sittingbison]

Well not sure if you were ever a teenager but as some teenagers I hear get into these intense kissing sessions and well if they concentrate on one spot it tends to draw blood to that spot and even pool there leaving a dark mark. So to not be noted as to of been kissing for extended amounts of time or be made fun of by fellow teenagers to no end there is known, well maybe unknown to you way to reduce this dark spot caused by the pooling of blood at the surface of the skin, we won't get into where they've been know to be commonly seen. You get a cold (ice cold) metal object, for example a spoon or a rounded but with an edge metal object and then rub it with some pressure but not too much (practice makes perfect) in one direction over and over repeating the cooling process to keep the metal object cold. I also hear some adults have this happen to them

or some makeup

 

[keeponrollin]

Well, isn't something like .5 liter some sort of standard? So that'll be about 10% of your hgb, assuming the blood volume is restored pretty fast. Can you loose that much hgb in training?

From my memory of donating blood, the basic volume is made up within 48 hrs. A quick google seems to confirm this...

Again; from experience the biggest annoyances, are that you really need to be well hydrated before donating. If you don't and you push yourself a bit, you may end up fainting from low blood pressure, from even comparative little exercise; I once had to run for a train straight after donating, & when I flopped into the seat on the train, I was in a cold sweat & felt awful.

Afterward you are going to be ready for a large number of calories, because I always eat like a savage afterward; but that might just have been my inner fat person breaking out

The needle mark is gone within a couple of days, assuming the person putting in the needle doesn't make a hash of it. I'd guess the people drawing the blood, don't use the inside of the elbow either, just to hide the marks all the better !

 

[sittingbison]

...the people drawing the blood, don't use the inside of the elbow either, just to hide the marks all the better !

to avoid tracks junkies use between the toes, inside the eyelids, the crack between the cheeks (is that why its known as crack?), sometimes up the nostril.

The best place for cyslists though is the ankles. The only problem is the traditional use of white socks and blood spots:

Richard Virenque on the other hand used all over his torso:

 

[skidmark]

Richard Virenque on the other hand used all over his torso:

Very good.

 

[arjanh]

Recap

OK, so the best strategy would be to go off for a week or two to some far-away mountainous region (to get the where-abouts sorted), train for ten days, withdraw blood, have it spun down, transfuse the plasma back, and just say you've trained really hard.

 

[Merckx index]

The short answer is that blood withdrawals can't be masked. But if they're done during the season, they generally are followed immediately by a transfusion, so there is no change in parameters. The withdrawal/transfusion cycle is used in effect to store blood beyond the several week limit that it is stable in the refrigerator. At any one time, the rider always has some freshly withdrawn blood stored and ready for a transfusion.

The only time a withdrawal would not be followed by transfusion is to obtain the original stored blood. This problem can be minimized by starting slowly, just withdrawing a 100 ml or so, then upping it to 200 ml and transfusing back the 100, and so on. If done incrementally, the change in parameters is too small to detect. It also has less effect on training, which is an issue with large withdrawals. Moreover, the process is usually begun in the off-season, when testing is less frequent.

A second problem is that when the rider uses the stored blood for actual performance enhancement, the transfusion is not preceded by withdrawal. Thus there is no longer any stored blood; the cycle is broken. This often limits the rider to PE transfusion for only a single major event, or very few such events. This is why freezing cells is such a big advantage. One can accumulate a large amount of stored blood, enough for several transfusions during the season. This also means a lot of withdrawal during the off-season to get all this blood. But red blood cells can be stored frozen for years, so it's possible to accumulate this blood over the course of more than one off-season.

 

[davidmam]

From my memory of donating blood, the basic volume is made up within 48 hrs. A quick google seems to confirm this...

Heading out on the club hilly chain gang that you normally struggle on when fit is really not a sound plan the evening of the day you donate blood.

Actually it is a really, really bad idea. Not something I care to repeat.
Typically about 3 weeks to return to the same pre-extraction form as an average amateur. I presume pros will have better training plans.

Never tried riding after a blood reinfusion - never had the opportunity for any reason (and hoping to not need one either.)