Matt Cooke, did he go there?

[Irondan]

Matt Cooke seems to be a polarizing figure here in the clinic. Let's discuss him and his tweets here in this thread rather than clogging up the JV talks thread.

Personally, I like the guy and follow him on twitter.

I'm happy that there's an ex-rider out there that has the initiative to break omerta and speak out against his fellow (ex) riders doping practices.

Pro-Cycling needs anti-doping warriors such as Matt.

The rumblings and rumors in the JV thread about him being a doper at Navigators is distressing, and hopefully unsubstantiated.

 

[blackcat]

The rumblings and rumors in the JV thread about him being a doper at Navigators is distressing, and hopefully unsubstantiated.

why hopefully?

shouldnt the truth just let lie (prone, still, on the ground, cold dead hands n all. not the duplicitous definition of lie)

 

[Benotti69]

I took the liberty (mods can delete should they wish) to move this post here;

I’m the ex-Cooke-teammate who spoke to Race Radio a while back. I’m doing this anonymously because I think the main reason Matt is doing this is to keep his name in the news and inflate his career post-mortum. I don’t want to do the same, I have no need to promote myself.

I’ve gotten pretty fed up with Matt’s twitter rants over the last year and it was good to see that others felt the same. pmcg76 seems to be the most in the know about Matt of anyone on this board. Apparently Matt’s new found anti-doping status is rubbing multiple people the wrong way because of the hypocrisy behind it. Here is what I know about domestic cycling’s new anti-doping hero:

-Started as a pro on Navigators and knew full well that he had teammates doping, yet stood by and cashed his checks
-Lived with Phil Z when Phil was buying from Papp, maybe Joe can let us know whether Phil was “eating for two"
-Defended Phil vehemently after Phil was popped.
-USADA contacted ex teammates of Matt's while investigating Matt around the time of the Phil bust. It was pretty clear to me that Matt himself was not cooperating.
-Was coached by Tyler Hamilton for a brief time and defended Tyler pretty adamantly, which really doesnt line up with how he views DZ, CVV etc. I’m pretty sure they were riding together in some of the 60 minutes footage.

Personally, it is my belief that Matt liked a little hot sauce here and there, if it wasnt a regular staple of his diet. He’s a strange kid and a 180 on doping to keep his name in the spotlight doesnt surprise me in the slightest. Based on some other stories, which don't pertain to cycling, he didn't strike me as a person of such high moral standards that he wouldn't dope. Quite the opposite in fact.

His Zajicek connection is by far the most hypocritical thing about this whole rant he is on. Just compare and contrast him with Gaimon who he has been highly critical of. Both had teammates/friends who had already been popped once, and got popped again. Gaimon expressed surprise and disbelief. Matt expressed pure defensiveness and not a bit of surprise. At least Gaimon’s reaction suggests that he wasn’t in the know about TD (hard to believe as that may be.) Matt’s reaction suggests he was fully aware and condoned Zajicek’s indiscretions.

I don’t know Gaimon that well other than talking with him in the peloton over the years, but he seemed incredibly genuine and was by far one of the nicest guys out there. That being said, there was only one cyclist that I was 100% sure was clean when I was racing and it was myself. There are a lot who fall into the 99% category, but you can only be 100% sure of what you put in your own body. I think it’s pretty stupid to put faith in people you dont even know. Guys have teammates who are doping and they arent aware of it, how the hell are fans supposed to know. I just hate seeing people who want to see a clean sport put their faith in some phony trying to stay relevant.

So you as an anonymous guy are allowed to post your beliefs that Cooke doped, but slam the guy for not being anonymous while calling out others? Hmmmmm, how does that work, oh yeah Magic......

What's your anti-doping status Magic?

PS nice guys dope too, ask BigMig.

.......I just hate seeing people who want to see a clean sport put their faith in some phony trying to stay relevant

That'll be JV and his team then

 

[Irondan]

That's fine, I was going to move it anyway, along with the rest of the Matt Cooke comments posted in the JV talks thread. I just haven't had a spare minute yet.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I think the only value of Cooke is that he is an easy way to explain that things are always more complicated. Saying "Omerta is bad" is too simple and doesn't get at the reality of the situation. Saying "dopers are liars" is too simple and doesn't get at reality. Saying "anti-doping talk is just PR" is too simple...

There are a few issues wrapped with Cooke that are inappropriately (I think) being bundled, and some that are inappropriately being segregated. An example of the latter: a poster decried the attacks on his character (that he just wanted attention and his ideas are not valid). In that case, his character does matter, because it is the only basis he's giving us for those ideas is his word and his new persona of anti-doping crusader. He doesn't have any more evidence for anything than we do. On the other hand, to say that he is irrelevant is also not a good stance to take, because a culture of shunning any kind of whistleblowing is another problem.

More so, how often have we seen that an anti-doping stance is really an anti doper stance? To think that Cooke is interested more in the good of the sport than the bad in JV/Danielson would go against the patterns we have seen and are seeing. Betsy and Walsh have shown that they're anti-doping is really anti-lance. I have a problem with that. I have a problem if Cooke's anti-doping is actually just anti-JV and Danielson. Even if I am anti-Lance, JV, Danielson, or whoever, I'm not misconstruing my own attacks on them as being for the greater good. That is dangerous, and the issue at play with Cooke. If that's the case, we have no way of knowing whether his pursuit, and the extra layer he is bringing as "insider", of Danielson/JV is based on anything he actually knows, instead of believes. And that matters.

And regarding his own doping, of course it matters, and of course it doesn't matter. What matters is the truth. If he is speaking the truth about Danielson's Lawyers getting him out of B-sample gate, than it doesn't matter if he doped. But if you accept his dealings with TD as a bigger piece of a new anti-doping mission and an absolute truth, then those beliefs are based on a very shaky foundation if he is an unrepentant doper.

So as a comparison, would we accept Betsy's or Walsh's opinions on anything other than Lance can't be accepted with the same value that they earned with Lance. Because they operated on personal vendetta, even if they used that to find truth, it cannot be accepted that every other perspective they share bears the same truth. It is the same issue with Cooke: is it an anti-doping crusade or personal grudge? I think a bitter grudge, (which can still motivate exposing truth) which is why I'll read his tweets about Danielson, but won't weigh his opinion on anything else as any more than some dude on twitter. Further, if he's a doper, then lock him in the same cell he built for Danielson.

Not a summary, but a parallel idea: Just because he's going against the grain doesn't mean he should be celebrated. He should be celebrated if he's right.

 

[Benotti69]

One of the values of Cooke is he is another rider who is not afraid to speak out. The more who do might encourage others to give voice to their anger at cheating and doping.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re:

One of the values of Cooke is he is another rider who is not afraid to speak out. The more who do might encourage others to give voice to their anger at cheating and doping.

That is the problem. He has not spoken out.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

One of the values of Cooke is he is another rider who is not afraid to speak out. The more who do might encourage others to give voice to their anger at cheating and doping.

That is the problem. He has not spoken out.

Not too many former riders saying stuff like this;

Matt Cooke ‏@matthewlcooke Oct 7
JV, you cheated into your position and you never paid a price for it. You are the biggest problem in this sport. You are an actual fraud.

Matt Cooke ‏@matthewlcooke Oct 7
I remember Tom Danielson telling me in 2008 that Jonathan Vaughters was personally coaching him.

I guess there is more on his feed should one feel inclined.

 

[del1962]

What has Matt Cooke done on his twitter account

Had a go and JV/Garmin Riders particularly Tom D

Had a go at rider 15

Asked if Aru has sued Henderson

Anything else of note?

If he is clean is that breaking omerta, because breaking omerta would be to speak about things he has actually seen otherwise it is just stuff that is already out there anyway.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

What has Matt Cooke done on his twitter account

Had a go and JV/Garmin Riders particularly Tom D

Had a go at rider 15

Asked if Aru has sued Henderson

Anything else of note?

If he is clean is that breaking omerta, because breaking omerta would be to speak about things he has actually seen otherwise it is just stuff that is already out there anyway.

He is hardly leading a crusade with facts, but at least he is having a go. More than most hacks.

The TomD and Garmin thing has been ignored by cycling media with no follow up. TomD still training as a Garmin rider, yet JV at this stage must know the B sample result, yet silence.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re: Re:

One of the values of Cooke is he is another rider who is not afraid to speak out. The more who do might encourage others to give voice to their anger at cheating and doping.

That is the problem. He has not spoken out.

Not too many former riders saying stuff like this;

Matt Cooke ‏@matthewlcooke Oct 7
JV, you cheated into your position and you never paid a price for it. You are the biggest problem in this sport. You are an actual fraud.

Matt Cooke ‏@matthewlcooke Oct 7
I remember Tom Danielson telling me in 2008 that Jonathan Vaughters was personally coaching him.

I guess there is more on his feed should one feel inclined.

I think we all agree that Matt is very mad at TD and JV. Given that none of these messages contain any facts or personal experiences regarding actual doping, I doubt they are very useful (or meaningful).

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

That is the problem. He has not spoken out.

Not too many former riders saying stuff like this;

Matt Cooke ‏@matthewlcooke Oct 7
JV, you cheated into your position and you never paid a price for it. You are the biggest problem in this sport. You are an actual fraud.

Matt Cooke ‏@matthewlcooke Oct 7
I remember Tom Danielson telling me in 2008 that Jonathan Vaughters was personally coaching him.

I guess there is more on his feed should one feel inclined.

I think we all agree that Matt is very mad at TD and JV. Given that none of these messages contain any facts or personal experiences regarding actual doping, I doubt they are very useful (or meaningful).

I think keeping the Tom D story and lack of B sample results out there useful. Vaughter's is a charade and another voice to that helps.

 

[gooner]

Re:

One of the values of Cooke is he is another rider who is not afraid to speak out. The more who do might encourage others to give voice to their anger at cheating and doping.

And if Nico Roche retired and did that, you'd be the first to hammer him for not opening his mouth while a team-mate of Contador. The same with Phil Z.

Cooke is going around with a chip on the shoulders enjoying the limelight that has come his way. I still remember his faux outrage at Cookson responding to the Colombian women's cycling gear.

 

[Benotti69]

The chance of Nico Roche calling out others would be a fine thing. The omerta is strong in the Roche blood lines....

Cooke aint the greatest exponent of anti-doping, because he has not given any facts, yet.....

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

That's fine, I was going to move it anyway, along with the rest of the Matt Cooke comments posted in the JV talks thread. I just haven't had a spare minute yet.

In response to the Magic Mike post.

I have followed the US scene on and off since the days of races like Du Pont, Philly, West Virginia and other events like Thrift Drug, First Union etc. I have even been to some of those events. It has always been interesting to see how the US scene has contracted and expanded at times in terms of races, teams, etc.

Some of the people involved in the US scene are quite open and i have got chatting to a few, asking questions about things in the US including doping. Usually just general stuff about how good/bad it is, who are the genuine 'natural' talents headed to the big leagues, what is the skivvy on Garmin etc, etc.

I asked these guys who in the US based scene was considered a doper and the general response was similar to what Magic Mike posted. In general they don't know and don't even know about their own team-mates but Cooke was one name given as a likely doper. When I asked why, the response was "just stuff you hear". Most of the suspicions about people seemed to be based on performances and anecdotal info and thus how the grapevine works. Like the clinic.

I didn't know much about Cooke at the time, just that he had a few decent results and seemed to have come to the sport later in life so it made a bit of sense. Fast forward a few years and imagine my surprise when Cooke is suddenly Mr.Anti-doping.

Unlike say Phil Gaimon or Will Routley who have been vocal whilst riding, I neverd heard of Cooke saying a peep before he retired. Put the other pieces together and it seems pretty obvious that Cooke is more interested in staying in the limelight that actually offering anything significant to the anti-doping cause. Magic Mile clearly knows a lot more than I do, but clearly our info either came from within the same circle or the Cooke doping thing was a strong rumour on the US scene.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I’m the ex-Cooke-teammate who spoke to Race Radio a while back. I’m doing this anonymously because I think the main reason Matt is doing this is to keep his name in the news and inflate his career post-mortum. I don’t want to do the same, I have no need to promote myself.

I’ve gotten pretty fed up with Matt’s twitter rants over the last year and it was good to see that others felt the same. pmcg76 seems to be the most in the know about Matt of anyone on this board. Apparently Matt’s new found anti-doping status is rubbing multiple people the wrong way because of the hypocrisy behind it. Here is what I know about domestic cycling’s new anti-doping hero:

-Started as a pro on Navigators and knew full well that he had teammates doping, yet stood by and cashed his checks
-Lived with Phil Z when Phil was buying from Papp, maybe Joe can let us know whether Phil was “eating for two"
-Defended Phil vehemently after Phil was popped.
-USADA contacted ex teammates of Matt's while investigating Matt around the time of the Phil bust. It was pretty clear to me that Matt himself was not cooperating.
-Was coached by Tyler Hamilton for a brief time and defended Tyler pretty adamantly, which really doesnt line up with how he views DZ, CVV etc. I’m pretty sure they were riding together in some of the 60 minutes footage.

Personally, it is my belief that Matt liked a little hot sauce here and there, if it wasnt a regular staple of his diet. He’s a strange kid and a 180 on doping to keep his name in the spotlight doesnt surprise me in the slightest. Based on some other stories, which don't pertain to cycling, he didn't strike me as a person of such high moral standards that he wouldn't dope. Quite the opposite in fact.

His Zajicek connection is by far the most hypocritical thing about this whole rant he is on. Just compare and contrast him with Gaimon who he has been highly critical of. Both had teammates/friends who had already been popped once, and got popped again. Gaimon expressed surprise and disbelief. Matt expressed pure defensiveness and not a bit of surprise. At least Gaimon’s reaction suggests that he wasn’t in the know about TD (hard to believe as that may be.) Matt’s reaction suggests he was fully aware and condoned Zajicek’s indiscretions.

I don’t know Gaimon that well other than talking with him in the peloton over the years, but he seemed incredibly genuine and was by far one of the nicest guys out there. That being said, there was only one cyclist that I was 100% sure was clean when I was racing and it was myself. There are a lot who fall into the 99% category, but you can only be 100% sure of what you put in your own body. I think it’s pretty stupid to put faith in people you dont even know. Guys have teammates who are doping and they arent aware of it, how the hell are fans supposed to know. I just hate seeing people who want to see a clean sport put their faith in some phony trying to stay relevant.

I have tried googling and am not coming up with much -- can you share any links where Matt Cooke defends Phil Z post-pop?

Anyone?
No one?
Hello?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I asked Papp on twitter and his recollection is Phil Z was eating for one. He said he would have to check his notes to be 100%, but at first blush that seems pretty clear that "Magic Matt" was talking falsely.

I PM'd Magic Matt for links of Cook supporting Phil Z post-pop, but so far no reply. I notice pcmg76 is still building a case on hearsay also.

Telling.

Compared to Tommy D's training camp rumour this Cook accusation stuff is p!ssing into the wind.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re:

Compared to Tommy D's training camp rumour this Cook accusation stuff is p!ssing into the wind.

This picture of Matt Cooke hanging out with Tom Danielson is pretty sweet tho.
http://community.active.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/38-11430-6887/Pros-in-Estes---web.jpg

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Compared to Tommy D's training camp rumour this Cook accusation stuff is p!ssing into the wind.

This picture of Matt Cooke hanging out with Tom Danielson is pretty sweet tho.
http://community.active.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/38-11430-6887/Pros-in-Estes---web.jpg

So in 2008 he was training with a group? And they all seem to be from different teams. Are you insinuating they are all dopers? At least 2 of them are, no question. Not quite the same as hanging out with Tommy D though, is it?

http://community.active.com/blogs/GaleBernhardt/2008/12/07/estes-with-the-pros

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Also curious how Magic Matt knew of the TommyD training camp discussion - that's buried deep in the JV thread and was only a few posts.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

Compared to Tommy D's training camp rumour this Cook accusation stuff is p!ssing into the wind.

This picture of Matt Cooke hanging out with Tom Danielson is pretty sweet tho.
http://community.active.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/38-11430-6887/Pros-in-Estes---web.jpg

So in 2008 he was training with a group? And they all seem to be from different teams. Are you insinuating they are all dopers? At least 2 of them are, no question. Not quite the same as hanging out with Tommy D though, is it?

http://community.active.com/blogs/GaleBernhardt/2008/12/07/estes-with-the-pros

Do we need a picture of a training camp to assume that cyclists in the 2000's are likely dopers?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Compared to Tommy D's training camp rumour this Cook accusation stuff is p!ssing into the wind.

This picture of Matt Cooke hanging out with Tom Danielson is pretty sweet tho.
http://community.active.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/38-11430-6887/Pros-in-Estes---web.jpg

So in 2008 he was training with a group? And they all seem to be from different teams. Are you insinuating they are all dopers? At least 2 of them are, no question. Not quite the same as hanging out with Tommy D though, is it?

http://community.active.com/blogs/GaleBernhardt/2008/12/07/estes-with-the-pros

Do we need a picture of a training camp to assume that cyclists in the 2000's are likely dopers?

I am responding to someone claiming Cooke is "hanging out" with Danielson.

What are you responding to?

Or are you taking Benotti's line that every single racer dopes?

 

[joe_papp]

Re:

I asked Papp on twitter and his recollection is Phil Z was eating for one. He said he would have to check his notes to be 100%, but at first blush that seems pretty clear that "Magic Matt" was talking falsely.

I PM'd Magic Matt for links of Cook supporting Phil Z post-pop, but so far no reply. I notice pcmg76 is still building a case on hearsay also.

Telling.

Compared to Tommy D's training camp rumour this Cook accusation stuff is p!ssing into the wind.

Firstly, I can confirm the above conversation/correspondence, and also note that I haven't dug out the boxes of hardcopy legal docs which would contain PZ records. But I don't remember PZ ordering quantities (or manifesting other signals, such as split shipping) that suggested anything other than personal use.

Secondly, I have to say that I think it's poor form to publicly go after someone w/ apparent rumor and innuendo and anonymous pseudo-sourcing, w/o accepting the responsibility to make your own identity clear and verifiable (this is directed at whoever it is who's starting this anti-Matt campaign). It's one things for fans of the sport to speculate while posting on internet forums using pseudonyms, but laundering evidence-free claims or suggestions of doping just seems irresponsible, unreliable and abusive.

Everyone/anyone making a direct, "I was there" accusation against Matt should have to make that accusation under their real name for obvious reasons. And people w/o direct evidence supporting their allegations shouldn't be making them in the first place, as hearsay is hardly a strong foundation to build on.

I don't even know Matt that well on a personal level but this is more about how any rider or other public figure should be treated in similar circumstances.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Compared to Tommy D's training camp rumour this Cook accusation stuff is p!ssing into the wind.

This picture of Matt Cooke hanging out with Tom Danielson is pretty sweet tho.
http://community.active.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/38-11430-6887/Pros-in-Estes---web.jpg

So in 2008 he was training with a group? And they all seem to be from different teams. Are you insinuating they are all dopers? At least 2 of them are, no question. Not quite the same as hanging out with Tommy D though, is it?

http://community.active.com/blogs/GaleBernhardt/2008/12/07/estes-with-the-pros

Do we need a picture of a training camp to assume that cyclists in the 2000's are likely dopers?

Post the picture of Froome with Vino and bingo!

We see it lots, people don't like whislteblowers, they feel it is ratting and no one likes a rat......

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

snipped for brevity...

Everyone/anyone making a direct, "I was there" accusation against Matt should have to make that accusation under their real name for obvious reasons. And people w/o direct evidence supporting their allegations shouldn't be making them in the first place, as hearsay is hardly a strong foundation to build on.

I don't even know Matt that well on a personal level but this is more about how any rider or other public figure should be treated in similar circumstances.

Although I agree with your view in general. In this case, there was no direct 'I was there' accusation, just reporting what was being said on the scene at the time and an opinion that Cooke likely was not a 100% clean rider. People can and will judge the context and make up their own minds accordingly. Hearsay and speculation are part of the clinic due to the clandestine topics discussed here.