Michael Ashenden - Voice of Reason

[Alpe d'Huez]

I was going to just post this link in another thread, but I think it warrants it's own, because everything Ashenden says seems logical. A wise voice of reason. There's a main article on the front CN Page that everyone should read. Link here.

He mostly speaks about the UCI and Lausanne lab that tested Armstrong's 2001 samples, the meeting, and exchange of money. But everything he says just makes sense.

“I find allegations of a meeting extremely disturbing, and it needs to be investigated,”

"Is it feasible or possible that a cover up could ever happen? If nothing else, the fact that there’s an investigation suggests that it is."

"Armstrong’s statements under oath concerning the amounts he paid, how and why he made the payments are very difficult to believe, and do nothing to dispel suspicion."

Regarding Verbruggen insisting that Armstrong never tested positive and the lab couldn't possible change the outcome of a test:

"For Mr Verbruggen to deny that is just unfathomable to me. The only other possibility than Armstrong injecting EPO was that the French lab deliberately spiked the samples. No one has ever given any plausible account for how that might have been accomplished. Spiking or injecting. They’re the only two possibilities. So essentially Mr Verbruggen is inferring that the Paris lab did precisely what the UCI denies is impossible for the Lausanne lab to have done – tamper with a test outcome.”

Please read the full article. Comments welcome.

 

[D-Queued]

I was going to just post this link in another thread, but I think it warrants it's own, because everything Ashenden says seems logical. A wise voice of reason. There's a main article on the front CN Page that everyone should read. Link here.

He mostly speaks about the UCI and Lausanne lab that tested Armstrong's 2001 samples, the meeting, and exchange of money. But everything he says just makes sense.

“I find allegations of a meeting extremely disturbing, and it needs to be investigated,”

"Is it feasible or possible that a cover up could ever happen? If nothing else, the fact that there’s an investigation suggests that it is."

"Armstrong’s statements under oath concerning the amounts he paid, how and why he made the payments are very difficult to believe, and do nothing to dispel suspicion."

Regarding Verbruggen insisting that Armstrong never tested positive and the lab couldn't possible change the outcome of a test:

"For Mr Verbruggen to deny that is just unfathomable to me. The only other possibility than Armstrong injecting EPO was that the French lab deliberately spiked the samples. No one has ever given any plausible account for how that might have been accomplished. Spiking or injecting. They’re the only two possibilities. So essentially Mr Verbruggen is inferring that the Paris lab did precisely what the UCI denies is impossible for the Lausanne lab to have done – tamper with a test outcome.”

Please read the full article. Comments welcome.

I don't think the UCI likes the Paris lab. Some sort of history there.

Maybe it is because they are French. You know, Lance has repeatedly told us it is 'the French'.

Now, the Swiss would "never, never, never" be involved in controversy around Lance's samples.

Dave.

 

[MacRoadie]

Hate to burst your bubble Alpe, but:

One thing is for sure, someone is lying. It is not Verbruggen or my Lance, so it must be Ashden. I believe in the credibility of Verbruggen, he is affiliated with the I.O.C. and U.C.I..
This UCI Asheden guy GRR! (haven.t felt this fire in my tummy since the TdF,2009, that guy Contador, GRR!)what kind of secret envelopes are going under the table to Ashden, to Smear my guy Lance.Remember the GIRO 1969 when the GIRO organizers wanted my Eddy to throw the race? Than the dope testers falsified my Eddy Merckx's results, sullying Eddy's super E. Q. career.
Conspiracies happen, and that is happening to Lance right now. Life is so unfair.
LIVESTRONG!

Gotta believe the credibility of Verbruggen because he's with the UCI, but you can't trust Ashenden because...he's with the UCI...

 

[lean mean &green]

ashenden's statements have always, and continue to be, the most damning.

 

[JPM London]

ashenden's statements have always, and continue to be, the most damning.

Maybe because he sticks to facts and reason to a degree like no one else...

 

[Merckx index]

I like Mike, and am glad he has spoken out here. But he is not invulnerable to criticism. He claimed his HBT could not have a false positive, which is a statement no scientist should ever make about a test. And while he is correct that one couldn't spike the '99 samples just by adding EPO from a bottle to them, they could have been spiked by using a dilution series. It would have taken someone very knowledgeable to do this, and there are other reasons as well for excluding the spiking scenario, but his original discussion of this would have been more compelling if he had pointed this out.

That said, he is far above Hein and Co. in the credibility dept.

 

[Markyboyzx6r]

Ashenden is a scientist. His links to the UCI are on the basis of his scientific ability, but he's not going to compromise his scientific principles to dance the Pat/Hein shoe shuffle.

Fair do's to the lad. His analysis of the '99 samples is the 'smoking gun' that's received surprisingly little mainstream coverage.

 

[UpTheRoad]

Sorry to veer a little off topic, but the focus on the TdS 2001 test is what Lance told Tyler. That is what is being debated more in the "he said, he said" vein. What is not being debated strenuously enough, and was discussed after Tyler's piece, was that the FBI interviewed the lab director and he said that there was some shenanigans going on.

We have from the rider's view (Landis and Hamilton), but we also have some clear evidence from the lab director/analyst perspective. That also have in writing, I believe, the comment that the sample is "suspicious" and consistent with EPO use that was never followed up on fully. Of course, the first donation took place around that time, I believe.

EDIT: In no way am I stating that the lab angle has been dismissed. It just appears to have taken a back seat to what Lance may have told Tyler and Floyd.

 

[MacRoadie]

I like Mike, and am glad he has spoken out here. But he is not invulnerable to criticism. He claimed his HBT could not have a false positive, which is a statement no scientist should ever make about a test. And while he is correct that one couldn't spike the '99 samples just by adding EPO from a bottle to them, they could have been spiked by using a dilution series. It would have taken someone very knowledgeable to do this, and there are other reasons as well for excluding the spiking scenario, but his original discussion of this would have been more compelling if he had pointed this out.

That said, he is far above Hein and Co. in the credibility dept.

No one is beyong reproach, or criticism. The '99 sample spiking scenario though, required a bit of debate and in the end was shown to require not only a person very knowledeable in the process, but also knowledge of ownership of all the samples to get the right progression of ratios, and a good amount of time to prepare the spiked samples.

Ashenden does at times speak in unnecessary absolutes for sure. He should probably have said the spiking process was so involved (but far from impossible) as to be IMPRACTICAL.

At any rate, Ashenden is a lot further away from the "Easily Dismissed" end of the scale than most...

 

[flicker]

All we have here is another one of Super Lance's bitter, angry, jealous, employees. First Tex-Pat, then Jack Daniels, AKA ManRod, then Frankie, then,Chimera twin, master of Tanker, then Dr. Ferrari, then Dr. Ashden.
See a pattern here anyone?

 

[MacRoadie]

All we have here is another one of Super Lance's bitter, angry, jealous, employees. First Tex-Pat, then Jack Daniels, AKA ManRod, then Frankie, then,Chimera twin, master of Tanker, then Dr. Ferrari, then Dr. Ashden.
See a pattern here anyone?

Every post you submit suggests you're an idiot?

 

[sheenyp]

Ashenden did describe the possibility of spiking in his 2009 NYVelocity interview with Andy Shen:

http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2009/spiking-armstrongs-99-samples

 

[Neworld]

All we have here is another one of Super Lance's bitter, angry, jealous, employees. First Tex-Pat, then Jack Daniels, AKA ManRod, then Frankie, then,Chimera twin, master of Tanker, then Dr. Ferrari, then Dr. Ashden.
See a pattern here anyone?

Amazing Flicker. At first read I couldn't figure out your pattern of logic but then I looked again.

All we have here is another one of Super Lance's bitter, angry, jealous, employees. First Tex-Pat, then Jack Danielss, AKA ManRod, then Frankie, then, Chimera twin, master of Tanker, then Dr. Ferrari, then Dr. Ashden.
See a pattern here anyone?


Now I get it. I'm sure that Dr. Mike A would hate to debate facts with someone as intellectual and unbiased as you.

NW

 

[lean mean &green]

Every post you submit suggests you're an idiot?

why the question mark?

 

[lurveleven]

Every post you submit suggests you're an idiot?

indeed, *icker never stops to amaze

 

[MarkvW]

All we have here is another one of Super Lance's bitter, angry, jealous, employees. First Tex-Pat, then Jack Daniels, AKA ManRod, then Frankie, then,Chimera twin, master of Tanker, then Dr. Ferrari, then Dr. Ashden.
See a pattern here anyone?

Yeah . . .? Lance surrounds himself with doping cheats . . . That's the most obvious pattern.

 

[Oldman]

I don't think the UCI likes the Paris lab. Some sort of history there.

Maybe it is because they are French. You know, Lance has repeatedly told us it is 'the French'.

Now, the Swiss would "never, never, never" be involved in controversy around Lance's samples.

Dave.

Interpol's involvement with USADA and the amount of pressure the US has put on Swiss banking to disclose fraud suggests a tie. The adage "follow the money" is of note here and this is where Lance's facilitators may be at legal risk. Most major frauds are perpetrated in Texas but the funds are usually processed in Switzerland.

 

[MarkvW]

Interpol's involvement with USADA and the amount of pressure the US has put on Swiss banking to disclose fraud suggests a tie. The adage "follow the money" is of note here and this is where Lance's facilitators may be at legal risk. Most major frauds are perpetrated in Texas but the funds are usually processed in Switzerland.

Swiss are now sharing criminal financial info with the USA. Lots of tax cheats are going to get annihilated. The Swiss are now officially "cool dudes." I don't think they need to be pressured anymore.

Ongoing drug dealing investigations are being spawned at a rate that appears unusual to me. I wonder . . .. I think the feds have taken the USPS drug connection information and have shared it with European investigators who are conducting present day investigations.

 

[cathulu]

F**cker has run his course imho, he has nothing useful to add anymore (if he ever did) - he is just lame and tired now. I don't comment often, but I wish now he would now fack off. I am going to hide his drivel from now on.

Polish is close to being next, but he manages to occasionally still post something interesting.

 

[uspostal]

F**cker has run his course imho, he has nothing useful to add anymore (if he ever did) - he is just lame and tired now. I don't comment often, but I wish now he would now fack off. I am going to hide his drivel from now on.

Polish is close to being next, but he manages to occasionally still post something interesting.

I really thought we were discussing Ashenden, but I guess if its against La it will slide by.

I would have felt better about Ashenden if a 1st year medical student hadn't spoken up about how to dilute the sample. I'm also not sure of how long it would take to spike then but they were held from 99 - 05 that may have been long enough to figure it out.

 

[Spider1964]

F**cker has run his course imho, he has nothing useful to add anymore (if he ever did) - he is just lame and tired now. I don't comment often, but I wish now he would now fack off. I am going to hide his drivel from now on.

Polish is close to being next, but he manages to occasionally still post something interesting.

Isn't Polish a she?

 

[Neworld]

I really thought we were discussing Ashenden, but I guess if its against La it will slide by.

I would have felt better about Ashenden if a 1st year medical student hadn't spoken up about how to dilute the sample. I'm also not sure of how long it would take to spike then but they were held from 99 - 05 that may have been long enough to figure it out.

Dr. Ashenden already figured out the probability...maybe you should read the article yourself. I'm sorry though, I don't think they have it in scratch-n-sniff or large font forms. Don't try to discredit Dr. Ashenden, your truncated cloak of competence will be exploited.

NW

 

[uspostal]

Dr. Ashenden already figured out the probability...maybe you should read the article yourself. I'm sorry though, I don't think they have it in scratch-n-sniff or large font forms. Don't try to discredit Dr. Ashenden, your truncated cloak of competence will be exploited.

NW

I know he did after a 1st year medical student said it could be done.

*** edited by mod ***

 

[Neworld]

I do like the porn referance of the scratch-n-sniff at least everybody knows what you do when not on this site. Flapping and sniffing for the greater good

No not porn, more like the S-n-s for prepubescent, emotionally tortured, teenagers. The bright side is you're still young and you can still improve and do some good.

Back to 'voice of reasoning' have you considered emailing Dr. Ashenden? I have and he's very straight forward and well, reasonable. You have easy access to him. Ask him some questions and/or help him understand your wisdom. Please get back to us, I'd love to hear/read you conversations.

Good luck.

NW

 

[AussieGoddess]

God I love this guy.

Straight to the heart of the matter.

Yes Mike - the UCI accepting donations from its current TdF champion who is surrounded by doping allegations IS INCREDIBLY inappropriate.

Yes Mike - LA is lying every time he says he has never used PED's or never tested posative because we all know he has

Yes Mike - the lab doing the testing contacting the rider involved IS INCREDIBLY inappropriate ... and yes the UCI MUST have set that up because otherwise how would the lab have known who's sample it was? The lab only gets sample numbers.

It therefore might have gone something like - test is posative,
- lab contacts UCI,
- UCI tells lab "lets call this one a grey area",
- UCI sets up meeting with LA and JB to discuss the finer points of testing and for gifts to be exchanged??????