More OEM/ODM Info

[DirtyWorks]

For those who aren't familiar with the bike manufacturing industry, here's a nice post about some of the mainline sources: Some of the writing is a little obtuse, but the general article should be helpful for those who aren't aware of the OEM<->Bike Brand dance. http://cyclingiq.com/2012/02/14/shadow-optic-the-manufacturing-partner-paradox/

A very nice shot of one of the molds responsible for all that 'craftsmanship' at the big-3. http://inrng.com/2012/02/who-made-your-bike/ The article pretty much refers back to the cyclingiq article.

Not to belabor the point too much, but this article is more confirmation there just isn't that much variety in the big-money part of the bike business, and going direct is the way forward even if it's through a middleman like Pedal Force or Pricepoint's Sette-branded stuff.

 

[Indurain]

Makes me not feel so bad about buying clones, given major frame companies like Pinarello, Cervelo, Specialized, etc aren't being entirely honest with us.

I currently own a Pedal Force CG1 (sub 1kg frame for under $1000). Painted and rebranded Ritte sells this for $2100. Great frame in every way. Had a small problem with the bottom bracket. Pedal Force honoured their warranty by paying for it's repair locally. They did offer to replace the frame but I didn't want to be without it for that long.

I just bought and awaiting a 2012 Pinarello Dogma 2 clone. Almost exact in every way to the real thing from what I've seen of others. I rebranded it a Chinarello Mad-Dog though. I'm not pretending it's something it's not. But if Pinarello don't want clones going out, don't get them made in Taiwan or China, paint them in italy and then pretend they were completely made there. Most of the dollars we pay for them is for the marketing and paying pro teams to use them.

I'd be interested what pro's would use if they had freedom of choice.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Makes me not feel so bad about buying clones, given major frame companies like Pinarello, Cervelo, Specialized, etc aren't being entirely honest with us.

I currently own a Pedal Force CG1 (sub 1kg frame for under $1000). Painted and rebranded Ritte sells this for $2100. Great frame in every way. Had a small problem with the bottom bracket. Pedal Force honoured their warranty by paying for it's repair locally. They did offer to replace the frame but I didn't want to be without it for that long.

I just bought and awaiting a 2012 Pinarello Dogma 2 clone. Almost exact in every way to the real thing from what I've seen of others. I rebranded it a Chinarello Mad-Dog though. I'm not pretending it's something it's not. But if Pinarello don't want clones going out, don't get them made in Taiwan or China, paint them in italy and then pretend they were completely made there. Most of the dollars we pay for them is for the marketing and paying pro teams to use them.

I'd be interested what pro's would use if they had freedom of choice.

Hard to do but see what a 'pro' rides either when he's by himself, w/o team kit or what he rides after he retires.

Lotsa Pegorettis, DeRosas, older Merckx, not the plastic stuff.

 

[Boeing]

Nice work D Dubs. thanks for the links. interesting

 

[The Gnome]

They mention Colnago being made at that same factory...is that really correct?

This reminds be abit via guitars...Fender, Gibson, most of the traditional American made companies (except Rickenbacker, who still make everything here) I think have them made in Taiwan, Mexico...but at least usually have the American made models they still produce fairly well demarcated...more expensive as well of course...but they are somewhat honest about it...tho you do have to look abit closer. Some of this stuff pointed out in the article with the likes of Cervelo, Pinarello ect pretty much seems like a bait and switch operation...

 

[PCutter]

They mention Colnago being made at that same factory...is that really correct?

It is my understanding that the monocoque Colnago's are made in the Asian factory. Only the lugged carbon frames are made in Italy.

To achieve a 'Made in Italy' sticker on a frame under EU rules the majority of the cost of production (or some % hurdle) needs to be done in Europe. So make the raw frame in Asia, paint and finish it in Europe and voila, Made in Europe

 

[DirtyWorks]

They mention Colnago being made at that same factory...is that really correct?

Sure, why not? It's very good product. Careful though, I/We don't know how much of Colnago's product is outsourced.

Some of this stuff pointed out in the article with the likes of Cervelo, Pinarello ect pretty much seems like a bait and switch operation...

Exactly.... Idealize a bygone era of cycling and slap some stickers on an OEM's carbon. It is a good Marketing model in the U.S. anyway. What makes it worse is some of the pitiful warranties on some of these high-priced flipped products.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Sure, why not? It's very good product. Careful though, I/We don't know how much of Colnago's product is outsourced.

Yeah, we do, It's been discussed many times on the forum. Up until this year the only the lugged frames C59 and EPQ were made in Ernesto's basement. Now the EPQ is gone which leaves the C59 as the only carbon frame made at Colnago. In the coming years the "C" series will eventually be outsourced as well.

 

[42x16ss]

Sure, why not? It's very good product.

That's it. The bikes are still develpoed, designed and tested by Colnago/Cervelo/Cannondale/Felt/Pinarello/Trek/Specialized etc, they are still built to the brand's specifications, using the materials specified and they still have to pass their QC before they are shipped and assembled.

The bikes will still be just as good as if they were made in Italy, Canada, USA etc so what's the issue?

 

[briztoon]

When I bought my Specialized Tarmac I had a nice long talk to the LBS owner (Specialized branded LBS). He explained a lot to me about the construction of the Tarmac SL2, SL3 & SL4, how they were made and where they were made (Taiwan).

One thing I remember him saying was that while the frame manufacture was outsourced to a factory in Taiwan, they were still made to Specializeds' specification and that Specialized had quality control people in the factory to make sure things were done the right way.


Now as to the molds. I know nothing about carbon frame manufacture, but wouldn't the carbon still be layered up and coated with what ever resin by hand? Isn't the mold then used to bake the carbon and resin?

So still made by hand. Unless they have machines that can layer up the carbon, etc now.

 

[BroDeal]

One thing I remember him saying was that while the frame manufacture was outsourced to a factory in Taiwan, they were still made to Specializeds' specification and that Specialized had quality control people in the factory to make sure things were done the right way.

Aww, the old designed by white men, built by Chinamen marketing ploy, but in this case the Chinese cannot even be trusted to build it right.

Specialized frames are made by Merida, which owns a substantial part of Specialized. Merida uses Specialized to sell into the American market instead of selling its own branded frames like it does in other countries. I think that Merida can be relied on to build a decent product.

Now as to the molds. I know nothing about carbon frame manufacture, but wouldn't the carbon still be layered up and coated with what ever resin by hand? Isn't the mold then used to bake the carbon and resin?

So still made by hand. Unless they have machines that can layer up the carbon, etc now.

Hand made does not mean the opposite of being built by machines. Its connatation and usual use is that something was built by artisan labor. These frames made in China and Taiwan are very far from being built by artisans.

 

[42x16ss]

Aww, the old designed by white men, built by Chinamen marketing ploy, but in this case the Chinese cannot even be trusted to build it right.

If that's the case then how do enough frames get through QC to not only make bike companies profitable but get so many of them a solid repeat consumer base?

 

[BroDeal]

If that's the case then how do enough frames get through QC to not only make bike companies profitable but get so many of them a solid repeat consumer base?

You would have to ask Specialized that. Maybe the reason they charge thousands of dollars for frames that cost less than $200 to make is because they have to throw ten away for every one fit to sell...or maybe it's one giant rip-off.

 

[42x16ss]

You would have to ask Specialized that. Maybe the reason they charge thousands of dollars for frames that cost less than $200 to make is because they have to throw ten away for every one fit to sell...or maybe it's one giant rip-off.

I'm more inclined to say rip-off. Move the manufacturing off shore and cut the labour margin yet sell them for the same price. Bikes are just as good but a third of the cost.....

 

[DirtyWorks]

Aww, the old designed by white men, built by Chinamen marketing ploy, but in this case the Chinese cannot even be trusted to build it right.

Hold on a second. I would argue the volume on the production line is what drives possible quality issues. A job on the line is a different job than someone laying up one-off carbon. The guys getting sellable frames to pop out of that mold are very skilled. Analogous to your one-off/small shop frame builder.

The lines are very sophisticated and they do a great job. Lots of Specialized, Cannondale and Trek's, a few Merckx's Pinnarello's, etc. are cranked out of these plants and ridden without issues.

Be warned, 'cost' is a complicated thing here. With carbon, it's ALWAYS making the first one that gets through Q/C costs a fortune. Look at the dies in the photo! They aren't cheap or easy to do. So, your $200 includes the die costs amortized over thousands of frames shipped.

 

[BroDeal]

Be warned, 'cost' is a complicated thing here. With carbon, it's ALWAYS making the first one that gets through Q/C costs a fortune. Look at the dies in the photo! They aren't cheap or easy to do. So, your $200 includes the die costs amortized over thousands of frames shipped.

Yet no-name carbon frames are sold through eBay for a few hundred bucks, and those frames are not being produced in volumes anywhere near what Specialized orders. Other frames are produced by Asian companies on speculation, hoping they will be picked out of catalogs by rebranders. And a small-fry upstart like the guys who started Volagi were able to get their frame produced with a few hundred grand and some work in their spare time.

 

[BroDeal]

There is a thread on Weight Weenies where someone is designing a custom carbon frame for himself by having the molds built in China. He has not given a price, but in one message he implies that the cost will be around the $15K mark that other people pay for a high end bike. I found it interesting that the cost was a lot lower than what I assumed.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=94417