Mountain Team Time Trial

[Anonymous]

Could it work?

This one occured to me while reading the Tour de France thread. Scrap the normal team time trial, or even the mountain time trial and instead have a mountain team time trial over about 25k.

The Logic

1) Great spectacle for the fans

2) really interesting to watch team tactics, watching as vino goes mental because the rest of the team cant keep up, or watching the schlecks have to support the rest of the team in getting up the mountain, would also give the likes of Euskaltel a shot.

3) Would put teams like HTC in an interesting position, do they take a leadout heavy squad, or do they balance it more with 2 true climbers, Sprinter, 3 leadout guys, and 3 riders who are able to do a bit of both.

Possible? Or just too "far out"

 

[Michele]

Not possible in my opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

Not possible in my opinion.

And why not? I dont know if its possible, but say why

 

[ingsve]

There would have to be very specific rules for it to stand a chance of working. The biggest problem would be the current rule that takes the time of the 5th rider past the line. In a TTT it's a lot easier for weaker riders to sit on the wheel and still finish with the best TTers and the loss to the team is marginal. In a mountain TTT the finishing time would be almost completely determined by the effort of the 5th best guy since you don't get nearly as much help in a climb from your team mates. That sounds like a very random factor for most GC guys to accept.

Another problem would be that TTTs are usually held in the beginning of a GT so that no team risk having lost their most important riders to make the race fairer. It wouldn't be a problem in the Giro or Vuelta perhaps but finding suitable climbs in the Tour without starting in the alps or pyrenees would be hard.

 

[Altitude]

You are psychotic

 

[theyoungest]

This would mean too much of a disadvantage for riders with a weak team IMO. Like ingsve says, it's basically just about the strength of your 5th rider. In a flat TTT the damage can be limited, but if you lose 6 minutes in a TTT like this, that puts paid to your GC hopes.

 

[Anonymous]

You are psychotic

Nah, but the google ad on online dictionary for psychotic amused me

 

[lancaster]

you could take each riders time individually, just set each team off together, at 5 or 10 minute intervals. each team would break up very early on but tactics would still have an opportunity to play a part. particularly if there was a 5k run in to the climb.

otherwise, every team with even a outside GC hope to need to start with 6/7 good climbers (to account for an early crash or bad day for someone in the team eg FSchleck) would ruin the competition. the difference between the quality of the 5th best climber in each team is huge.

 

[The Hitch]

Id say let riders recieve their own times. Its just too unfair for someone like Cuddles if he breaks free from frustration, sets a great time on his own, but is given the same time as his team mate 30 minutes down.

The team bit in the ttt is still important then because domestiques can pace their contenders up and perhaps rewards teams with multiple gc guys but at the same time doesnt punish riders too much if their teams are total crap.

 

[Anonymous]

Id say let riders recieve their own times. Its just too unfair for someone like Cuddles if he breaks free from frustration, sets a great time on his own, but is given the same time as his team mate 30 minutes down.

The team bit in the ttt is still important then because domestiques can pace their contenders up and perhaps rewards teams with multiple gc guys but at the same time doesnt punish riders too much if their teams are total crap.

that would work.. some of the less strong climbers could use their domestiques for longer, the stronger ones could just go for it but risk blowing up. In which case though maybe it should be a little longer than the usual 25k as Ac etc can do one of those on their own.

 

[Rocksteady]

you could take each riders time individually, just set each team off together, at 5 or 10 minute intervals. each team would break up very early on but tactics would still have an opportunity to play a part. particularly if there was a 5k run in to the climb.

otherwise, every team with even a outside GC hope to need to start with 6/7 good climbers (to account for an early crash or bad day for someone in the team eg FSchleck) would ruin the competition. the difference between the quality of the 5th best climber in each team is huge.

I love this Idea. I will help those teams that have good mountain domestics but will hurt the people who suck wheels of better teams. Worst case scenario is that Cadel does an Ind. TT while the Andy Schleck gets pulled halfway up the mountain by Frank (just like every other mountain.)

 

[luckyboy]

Nah, but the google ad on online dictionary for psychotic amused me

The question is, what were you doing looking for the definition of psychotic?

 

[Altitude]

I love this Idea. I will help those teams that have good mountain domestics but will hurt the people who suck wheels of better teams. Worst case scenario is that Cadel does an Ind. TT while the Andy Schleck gets pulled halfway up the mountain by Frank (just like every other mountain.)

Frank wasn't pulling Andy up any mountains @ this years tour. Well, maybe in spirit

 

[Rocksteady]

Frank wasn't pulling Andy up any mountains @ this years tour. Well, maybe in spirit

But would have without the wreck, replace with Frank with Fuglsang if it helps you get the idea better.

Yeah 100 posts!! I should have a beer (after work) for that.

 

[Winterfold]

My initial reaction was WTF?! but Rocksteady and lancaster make some good points especially about this punishing wheel-sucking teams that don't pick a team with the aim of doing much work in the mountains.

The first few stages like this would be very interesting to watch as teams tried it out and worked out the correct pacing.

It would be very different from the likes of Navarro and Fuglsang giving it insane gas until they have dropped most of the GC contenders and then cruising up at 12 kmh

 

[Anonymous]

The question is, what were you doing looking for the definition of psychotic?

Well anything mental I like to double check first just in case I do have it

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

There would have to be very specific rules for it to stand a chance of working. The biggest problem would be the current rule that takes the time of the 5th rider past the line. In a TTT it's a lot easier for weaker riders to sit on the wheel and still finish with the best TTers and the loss to the team is marginal. In a mountain TTT the finishing time would be almost completely determined by the effort of the 5th best guy since you don't get nearly as much help in a climb from your team mates. That sounds like a very random factor for most GC guys to accept.

Ya, I agree the 5th man rule would potentially put some GC contenders at a huge defecit if they don't have 5 good climbers. Rolleurs wouldn't do their GC man any good in a mountain TTT. But I have to give the thought of a moutain TTT some credit for thinking outside the box.

 

[Barrus]

Ya, I agree the 5th man rule would potentially put some GC contenders at a huge defecit if they don't have 5 good climbers. Rolleurs wouldn't do their GC man any good in a mountain TTT. But I have to give the thought of a moutain TTT some credit for thinking outside the box.

Which would mean that it could possibly end up in the giro

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Never going to happen.

A time trial, or team time trial, on the flat is about overcoming air resistance.

Riding up a mountain is about overcoming gravity.

A powerful rider assists in a TTT on the flat by taking more than his share at the front, thus the team, and particularly the best riders on the team, assist the one who will eventually be 5th by reducing the air resistance he faces.

However, there is nothing one's teammates can do to reduce the gravitational force that a rider is subject to on a putative mountain team time trial. The only assistance the better riders can give the 5th best rider uphill is to be water carriers and pace-setters.

It would be entirely a competition of team composition and selection, and not of tactics or ability of the top men in the team.

 

[auscyclefan94]

GT's should never include TTT's. The general classidication is a classification for inidividuals. The teams classification is the classification for teams. make it a short 8km ttt to determine the yellow jersey but no actual time gaps. Give the team who wins a big prize for winning and be done with it.

 

[ingsve]

My initial reaction was WTF?! but Rocksteady and lancaster make some good points especially about this punishing wheel-sucking teams that don't pick a team with the aim of doing much work in the mountains.

I don't see that as a good thing. All it would do is create huge time differences in the GC which takes a lot of excitement out of the race. There's nothing worse than a GC that looks to be completely determined except for a couple places with half the race left.

 

[auscyclefan94]

TTT GT equation

TTT's > 20km wreck Grand tours = FACT

 

[The Hitch]

Never going to happen.

A time trial, or team time trial, on the flat is about overcoming air resistance.

Riding up a mountain is about overcoming gravity.

A powerful rider assists in a TTT on the flat by taking more than his share at the front, thus the team, and particularly the best riders on the team, assist the one who will eventually be 5th by reducing the air resistance he faces.

However, there is nothing one's teammates can do to reduce the gravitational force that a rider is subject to on a putative mountain team time trial. The only assistance the better riders can give the 5th best rider uphill is to be water carriers and pace-setters.

It would be entirely a competition of team composition and selection, and not of tactics or ability of the top men in the team.

The point is this would be more like 9 itts at once - because each rider gets timed individualy. The Team part is that they can help (slightly) up the mountains and for spectacle.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

The point is this would be more like 9 itts at once - because each rider gets timed individualy. The Team part is that they can help (slightly) up the mountains and for spectacle.

So this is a proposal for a rule change, not a parcours suggestion. There is no allowance within the rules of the sport as they stand for a stage timed like this.

 

[Rocksteady]

So this is a proposal for a rule change, not a parcours suggestion. There is no allowance within the rules of the sport as they stand for a stage timed like this.

So? It would be cool to watch.