New Wheel Build Project - Suggestions and Advice.

[JackRabbitSlims]

I'm looking at getting 2 new sets of wheels in the near future

A training set & a racing set. Races range from Crits to 4 day stage races.

Looking for comments and suggestions on:

1) Hubs
2) Spokes
3) Rims
4) Tires
5) Tubes

What would your ideal set up be and why. Suggestions on what to definitely stay away from would also be appreciated.

I'm hoping to buy all the parts and get a wheel builder to knock them up, so no proprietary wheels sets please -

 

[PCutter]

Depends on you budget. But as a basis, for training wheels, I like boring but bullet-proof.

Mavic Open Pro's (old school street cred) rims. Laced with Sapim CX-Ray spokes (but DT Swiss are a perfectly suitable substitute), and then as for hubs, its up to your budget. And here, again, I stick to reliability being my key criteria for training wheels, which means the Shimano range (assuming your riding Shimano or SRAM), with your budget being your guide. 105, Ultegra and DA will all be a solid, long lasting, and, importantly, easily serviceable hub, with your final budget deciding which level of Shimano you go for.

My Mavic Pro, CX-Rays and DA hubs are bomb proof, you could ride MTB tracks on them and be fine, but equally, Ultegra or 105 hubs will save you some decent coin and perform the duties of a training wheel equally well.

As for race wheels, also depends on your weight, but assuming you can ride a lightweight rim, hard to go past Zipp rims, and since you insist on not riding factory wheels (in which case I'd just go straight Zipp wheels) match them to some DT Swiss 190 hubs. As for rim depth, given you ride Crits and stage races, I personally go for weight being the king (over aero) so the tubular 202 rims. You'll be in the bunch 99% of the time so aero loses its importance over weight, so chase the weight weenies. Again, Zipp and DT Swiss while both being top end aren't 'exotic' so easily serviceable by your LBS.

Tyres - again (getting boring here) I stick to tried and true, race wheels - Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX (choice of champions), as for training tyres, assuming clinchers, Conti GP4000's, pretty light and decent level of wear. If you want a longer lasting training tyre, any of the big brand mid priced tyres should serve you well (Conti, Vittoria, Verdestein, Michelin, Schwable).

Good luck

 

[purpletezza]

Can of worms here....

Training wheels: I have some hand built wheels as follows: White Industries hubs, DT Swiss double butted spokes(laced three cross), Mavic Open Pro clincher rims. They weigh F 690g, R 870g, all up 1560grams. They role beautifully. They are beautiful to ride, spin up fast and roll for ages. The white hubs I have found to be very reliable as I have done about 10000kms on these wheels commuting and training. Suggest you look for a rear hub with a steel or Ti freewheel body as the aluminium ones get damamged by shimoano cassettes. This set is not really suited to crits as they flex laterally making fast corners a bit less certain.

Race wheels: For crits they need to be stiff and able to spin up to speed fast. I have always ridden Mavic Ksyrium SSC, then ES, now SL for crits and find them very reliable, I am 80kg, I did 25000kms on the SSC wheels before the rear rim split (I am sorry but these do not fit your hand built criteria.)

You will be entertained and confused by this thread, I can guarantee that!

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I'm looking at getting 2 new sets of wheels in the near future

A training set & a racing set. Races range from Crits to 4 day stage races.

Looking for comments and suggestions on:

1) Hubs
2) Spokes
3) Rims
4) Tires
5) Tubes

What would your ideal set up be and why. Suggestions on what to definitely stay away from would also be appreciated.

I'm hoping to buy all the parts and get a wheel builder to knock them up, so no proprietary wheels sets please -

Training-Ultegra(shimano, sram) or Miche(Campagnolo) hubs, DT 465 rims, 14/15 spokes, laced 32/3 cross, brass nipps. Conti Ultra Race, Vittoria Rubino Pro for tires.

Racing-Tubular a must. DT 240 hubs(don't waste your $ on ceramic-dum), Reynolds carbon tubie rims, DT Aerolight or Sapim Cx-Ray..20 front, 24 rear laced 2 cross. Vittoria CX for tires-easy....

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

Thanks.

Ok - a few more facts:

I'm running campy, the shimaNO stuff can stay on the shelf.

Rims, for training I have been thinking either Open Pro's or Ambrosio?
Hubs - Campy record or maybe Phil Wood or King? (still training wheels here)
Tubes - dunno, I usually just grab whatever is cheap
Tires - I've been running Conti Ultra Gator skins, which I like....good comments recently on GP 4000's
Spokes - I know nothing.

Yip - agree on the steel free hub body, I've seen the damage on the soft alu ones and it's nasty!

@Bustedknuckle - I know this is whole other discussion, but Tubular over clincher for the race tire?
I've never ridden a Tubed wheel, which is no reason not to try it, just wondering why you say it's a must? - I hear and read that the tubular / clinchers are very similar in performance these days?

Thanks for all your comments - some really good stuff there.

@PCutter - Yeah, I like the look of Zipps for sure - but also recent comments on here from some knowledgable folks just bagging their hubs and build quality. Plus the price of those things is well up there - Not sure if I'm being sucked into the massive marketing hype for something that just isn't that good.

I'm in NZ, so prices here are crazy high compared to what people pay in the UK or USA. I will probably accumulate the gear slowly over a few months and get built up.

Cheers -

 

[Vegan Dave]

Just a few ideas to throw into the pile, consider the new Stan's rims (Alpha 340) - they're light (~360g) and tubeless has a lot of appeal... The price is also pretty reasonable. Time will tell on longevity, i've got one on my winter bike, and another for cyclocross right now (both built up to PowerTap SLs), and they feel pretty solid. Tubeless for CX, but waiting for a tubeless road tire to get in at my shop to convert the road bike. (Which is a bit of a sore point - the Conti 4000's are the best all-round tire, imo, but can't be run tubeless....at least above 85psi.

A PowerTap or some other power meter might be worth considering as well, the data is invaluable.

Something to consider, anyway. Have fun! =)

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

Cheers.

Thanks Vegan Dave.

I'm gonna try and stick to something tried and true for the wheels. Not tubeless.

I run tubeless on the MTB as i like the running a low PSI and reduced chance of pinch flats...TBH, I fail to see the advantage of Tubeless on road wheels. I run 100 - 120 psi usually on clinchers....I can swap out a flat with C02 canister pretty quick if i need to.

Power is something I am considering in the future....but not a hub based set up which I think limits your options...unless you whack a PT Hub on 3 sets of wheels $$$ ?

I like the SRM or Quark crank based systems....but I think the best is yet to come. I hear that a pedal based system is close to entering the market in a collaboration between Garmin and Speedplay?

 

[Boeing]

I love it when people ask for advice only to tell you what they have already decided

 

[elapid]

@PCutter - Yeah, I like the look of Zipps for sure - but also recent comments on here from some knowledgable folks just bagging their hubs and build quality. Plus the price of those things is well up there - Not sure if I'm being sucked into the massive marketing hype for something that just isn't that good.

I read the other thread re Zipps with interest, and I know my personal experience is only n=1, but I have been riding Zipp 303s with a PT hub and Conti GP4000s for 5 years, 30,000km, and over good road, bad road (Quebec), and dirt roads. The Zipps have been bomb-proof. FYI - I don't ride crits but I do road races and centuries, so my wheel requirements are different to yours for the reasons others have detailed. Regardless, I decided on the Zipp 303s because I didn't want two separate wheel sets for training and racing. The Zipp 303s seemed to be the best compromise for both training and racing at the time. Another reason I did not want two wheel sets was because I wanted to train with power and the only good options at that time were PT and SRM and SRM was too expensive.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

Really?

I love it when people post replies that publicly display their lack of intelligence by having absolutley nothing constructive to add - Nice one!

If you read my posts,I've written down what I'm thinking about or have read good comments on - I have decided on anything yet.

Have a good day

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

True.

@elapid.

Thanks for your comments. Very true about the SRM! is a big $$ outlay, hence the reason I'm going to wait and see what comes to market in the next 12 months.

Did you buy the Zipps as a package wheel set, or have them laced up? Obviously you have the PT on the rear....whats on the front?
Why the 303 over the 202??

GP 4000's seem like a popular choice around here.

Cheers.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Ok - a few more facts:

I'm running campy, the shimaNO stuff can stay on the shelf.

Rims, for training I have been thinking either Open Pro's or Ambrosio?
Hubs - Campy record or maybe Phil Wood or King? (still training wheels here)
Tubes - dunno, I usually just grab whatever is cheap
Tires - I've been running Conti Ultra Gator skins, which I like....good comments recently on GP 4000's
Spokes - I know nothing.

Yip - agree on the steel free hub body, I've seen the damage on the soft alu ones and it's nasty!

@Bustedknuckle - I know this is whole other discussion, but Tubular over clincher for the race tire?
I've never ridden a Tubed wheel, which is no reason not to try it, just wondering why you say it's a must? - I hear and read that the tubular / clinchers are very similar in performance these days?

Thanks for all your comments - some really good stuff there.

@PCutter - Yeah, I like the look of Zipps for sure - but also recent comments on here from some knowledgable folks just bagging their hubs and build quality. Plus the price of those things is well up there - Not sure if I'm being sucked into the massive marketing hype for something that just isn't that good.

I'm in NZ, so prices here are crazy high compared to what people pay in the UK or USA. I will probably accumulate the gear slowly over a few months and get built up.

Cheers -

Hubs-No Campagnolo Phil or Chris King compatible hubs. Record hubs are great. As are DT.
Rims-Ambrosio(and DT) are light years better than Mavic OpenPro

Tubulars-better, more supple ride-corner better. Safer-no tires coming off the rim if you flat(glued on properly, of course). More comfy than clinchers- great for long races. Less flats(no pinch flats. 'Package' a wee bit lighter.

Good tubies are a better race tire than good clinchers.

 

[elapid]

Did you buy the Zipps as a package wheel set, or have them laced up? Obviously you have the PT on the rear....whats on the front?
Why the 303 over the 202??

GP 4000's seem like a popular choice around here.

I bought the Zipps as a package wheel set (Zipps were available with PT) when Lynskey was building up my bike. I have Zipp hubs on the front. I chose 303s instead of 202s based on recommendations from Zipp's website which said that 303s were the best compromise between training and racing. Marketing, eh?! That being said, a few months after I bought this wheel set, Zipp started recommending and marketing the so-called 434 wheel set for the same purpose (404 on the rear and 303 on the front).

If you are going to get two wheel sets, then I would definitely recommend the Continental GP4000's for your training wheels (or gator skins). I loved the feel of the Vittorias, but they were too soft, wore too quickly, and too prone to punctures. It felt like I was changing tubes at least once every long ride with the Vittorias, and now I barely have one puncture in a season with the GP4000's.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

!!

@ Bustedknuckle.
Seriously, I didn't know that Phil or King didn't have a Campy compatible hub! - I need to pay more attention -
I like the Record hubs, but not in black unfortunately. May have to see if I can source and older set.

Thanks for the recommendations.

@ elapid.
Lynskey! -Very nice. Full Ti with carbon fork? I have a custom Ti frame made by Darren Baum in Geelong, Australia - love it!
As I said before - I'e been running the Gator Skins for years and just swap out with a new one after they're worn. Our roads in NZ have a rough chip, harsh seal and is brutal on tires. When the overseas guys and gals come over for Ironman each year - you hear plenty of complaints about the rough road conditions!
I've always been keen to try a Tubular set up and see / feel the difference - seems to be an ongoing debate between Tubular and clincher - both seem to have pro and cons. Bustedknuckles comments are interesting on the topic and is food for thought. Pumps the price up a bit, but if just for racing and events it could be a step up.

 

[stoobydale]

Hi, Sorry to but in on this thread, but could I get some advice as well please. I am looking to build up a pair of wheels to compare in weight to my Zondas. I don't know if its possible but I would like to keep the budget below £350. I would like to use the wheels for fast training and road racing.

Rider 85Kg eek: sprinter type person)
Ideally I would like,
Front hub 20 hole radial lace
Rear hub 28 hole 2x drive radial nds Campagnolo freehub
Clinchers

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Hi, Sorry to but in on this thread, but could I get some advice as well please. I am looking to build up a pair of wheels to compare in weight to my Zondas. I don't know if its possible but I would like to keep the budget below £350. I would like to use the wheels for fast training and road racing.

Rider 85Kg eek: sprinter type person)
Ideally I would like,
Front hub 20 hole radial lace
Rear hub 28 hole 2x drive radial nds Campagnolo freehub
Clinchers

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Well, Zondas aren't very light, about 1700 grams.

I wouldn't build a radial front nor a radial NDS rear.

My choice-

28 hole hubset, like Velocity. DT 415 rims front and rear. Revolution spokes front, laced 28 2 cross, 1/2 Revolution rear, DT comp DS, also laced 2 cross. It will weigh less than Zondas, cost less than $550(350 UKP), be stiff and responsive.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

What about...?

OK - any comments on:
White Industries H3 / H2 hubs??

or maybe Velocity A23 rims??

Cheers -

For training set BTW.

 

[steelciocc]

CampyOnly...

Jackrabbit,

Why not build your training set on the real thing, Campy hubs?

You can usually find pre-'07 Centaur/Daytona hubsets reasonably priced on eBay and the latest (ugly) version of Centaur hubs are available everywhere for relatively cheap.

This assumes that you're going with 32 spoke trainers but I would hope that's where you're headed.

I hate to reveal one of my favorite sources but here you go:

http://www.totalcycling.com/index.php/product/parts_accessories/hubs_road/HB_CENTAUR_07.html

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

OK - any comments on:
White Industries H3 / H2 hubs??

or maybe Velocity A23 rims??

Cheers -

For training set BTW.

I've been training on a set of 36h A23's all season, which is probably the lightest 36h set I've ever built due to the rims... Don't really consider A23's as a long lasting rim though since it's basically a slimmed down, thinned out extrusion version of the Dyad. I fully expect to burn through the braking surface in the next couple years due to it being so thin. For training purposes I would recommend Ambrosio Excellence or some other double eyeletted rim for max durability and longevity.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

steelciocc - yeah I like the campy hubs and was hoping to go record, but I don't like the new Black look, I prefer the older polished ones

Leaning towards the White Industries right now.
32 3X pattern in the rear, undecided on the front.

Thanks for disclosing your source, but I already have that sucka in my favourites -

RDV - thanks for the comments on the A23's. I'm tossing up between Ambrosio's or Open Pros and will probably come down to $$.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

RDV - thanks for the comments on the A23's. I'm tossing up between Ambrosio's or Open Pros and will probably come down to $$.

Go Ambrosio! They're about the same price anyway. Can't even begin to tell you how annoying Open Pros are from a builders standpoint. I gave up on Mavic long ago.

 

[Hawkwood]

I've posted this before, but I can vouch for Ambrosio Excellight rims. I'm using a pair of wheels built with 28 hole Excellights. Although I'm 85 KGs I've always been light on good wheels. I've hit potholes that loosened fillings with these wheels and they are still as true as when they were built. Perhaps for more piece of mind you should go with 32 hole.

 

[dsut4392]

I'm looking at getting 2 new sets of wheels in the near future

A training set & a racing set. Races range from Crits to 4 day stage races.

Looking for comments and suggestions on:

1) Hubs
2) Spokes
3) Rims
4) Tires
5) Tubes

What would your ideal set up be and why. Suggestions on what to definitely stay away from would also be appreciated.

I'm hoping to buy all the parts and get a wheel builder to knock them up, so no proprietary wheels sets please -

So you have a wheel builder that you trust to build them for you, but you're not going to take their advice on what to use, or buy the parts through them? Fair enough I s'pose.

As far as prices in NZ being higher than UK, you have that the wrong way round altogether. Purchasing from any of the major UK websites (e.g. wiggle, chainreaction) you will actually pay LESS than UK shoppers as you won't pay VAT, and will probably qualify for free shipping even for one wheelset (and certainly for two).

 

[purpletezza]

Hi as mentioned earlier I have White LTA hubs, predecessor to the H2/H3 combo. The LTAs are superb. I recently have tried Hope III hubs in a wheelset with Ambrosio Evolution rimsa and stainless spokes 3 cross laced. The Hope hubs are not as good as the white as they do not freewheel as well and teh rear freewheel is not sealed as good as the White hubs, thus more maintainence. The Ambroisio rims are heavier and stiffer than the Mavic Open Pro. I can feel the diffference in ride. Th Hope/Ambrosio wheels are stiffer and harsher ride than the White/Open Pro wheels.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

OK - any comments on:
White Industries H3 / H2 hubs??

or maybe Velocity A23 rims??

Cheers -

For training set BTW.

Have little experience building with White hubs..overhail quite a few. Not a fan of a set screw driven into an aluminumaxle for security. For the $, I think DT are better hubs.

A23 are nice rims, wider so narrow tires may be tough to seat. You can run a wider tire(25mm) with less air for a more comfy ride but I think the 'advantage' over a narrower rim and the same tire is tiny.