Newsflash: EPO is more dangerous than orange juice

Mar 10, 2009
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Has any synthesized drug ever been good for us? In the short term yes, in the frame of reference of your life expectancy, nope.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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You all obviously love cancer. And hate perfection, I might add...

Sorry, but with the flicker gone, someone's gotta do it...
 
Aug 1, 2009
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ElChingon said:
Has any synthesized drug ever been good for us? In the short term yes, in the frame of reference of your life expectancy, nope.
Oh, c'mon, that's organic tofu Deepak Chopra woo woo. There's plenty of synthentic pharmaceuticals that have saved lives and are good for long term health expectancy. Start with antibiotics and compare life expectancy before and after they were introduced.

The problems with most "natural" drugs are that they don't work reliably, repeatably, or predictably.

The bottom line is that we aren't built to last, and our condition is terminal at the moment of birth.

-dB
 
May 23, 2011
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JMBeaushrimp said:
You all obviously love cancer. And hate perfection, I might add...

Sorry, but with the flicker gone, someone's gotta do it...
Extra tumor growth makes some people stronger. It is will, the urge to fight, and the steadfast refusal to give up that forges a champion out of the fires of cancer. The disease took the weaker men. It killed the cowards. The children who were not as good hearted as Lance wasted away. But Armstrong and his need to survive to kick french buttt survived and became a legend.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Damiano Machiavelli said:
Extra tumor growth makes some people stronger. It is will, the urge to fight, and the steadfast refusal to give up that forges a champion out of the fires of cancer. The disease took the weaker men. It killed the cowards. The children who were not as good hearted as Lance wasted away. But Armstrong and his need to survive to kick french buttt survived and became a legend.
That was beautiful! You forgot lazer-like focus, and the will to crush kittens between your naked toes...
 
Aug 4, 2009
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Realy with all the pestercides and sprays they spray on oranges never mind the wax they spray on them to make the shine and look nice.

Bananas are better but they cost $10 a kg now. is EPO cheaper?

God knows what they put in Orange juice.
 
dbrower said:
Oh, c'mon, that's organic tofu Deepak Chopra woo woo. There's plenty of synthentic pharmaceuticals that have saved lives and are good for long term health expectancy. Start with antibiotics and compare life expectancy before and after they were introduced.

The problems with most "natural" drugs are that they don't work reliably, repeatably, or predictably.

The bottom line is that we aren't built to last, and our condition is terminal at the moment of birth.

-dB
Antibiotics produced mainly by fermentation. Small amount semi synthetic. Maybe you could provide proof to support your other statements
 
Mar 10, 2009
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dbrower said:
Oh, c'mon, that's organic tofu Deepak Chopra woo woo. There's plenty of synthentic pharmaceuticals that have saved lives and are good for long term health expectancy. Start with antibiotics and compare life expectancy before and after they were introduced.

The problems with most "natural" drugs are that they don't work reliably, repeatably, or predictably.

The bottom line is that we aren't built to last, and our condition is terminal at the moment of birth.

-dB
Well some synthesized pharmaceuticals may increase life expectancy for one individual it but it also increases the life of bad genes, prolonging the existence of genetic defects in humanity.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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brianf7 said:
Realy with all the pestercides and sprays they spray on oranges never mind the wax they spray on them to make the shine and look nice.

Bananas are better but they cost $10 a kg now. is EPO cheaper?

God knows what they put in Orange juice.
That's why you buy organic to avoid those pesticides.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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joe_papp said:
I'll let you all know if I have cancer or heart disease or some other side-effect/condition in 15 years...
The thing is it will be hard to prove/disprove if it was the drugs or some other factor, but keep us in formed.
 
dbrower said:
Oh, c'mon, that's organic tofu Deepak Chopra woo woo. There's plenty of synthentic pharmaceuticals that have saved lives and are good for long term health expectancy. Start with antibiotics and compare life expectancy before and after they were introduced.

The problems with most "natural" drugs are that they don't work reliably, repeatably, or predictably.

The bottom line is that we aren't built to last, and our condition is terminal at the moment of birth.

-dB
It's more like "we evolved to make use of certain natural substances and aren't necessarily designed to handle synthetic substances our body has never seen before". Of course I agree with you that antibiotics have been enormously valuable, but their value comes from short-term use, not chronic treatment. You kill off an infection then get the patient off them. They have many deleterious effects, e.g., killing essential bacteria in the gut, which leads to digestive problems. Not to mention that depending on them too much may select super-bugs that are resistant to them.

Negative effects of EPO, particularly promoting tumor growth,have been known for quite a while now. Tumors need an enhanced blood supply, so it makes sense that EPO might accelerate carcinogenesis. In addition, EPO may have direct growth promoting effects on some tumors. But synthetic EPO acts in the body exactly as the natural form does, so giving a patient just enough to make up for his reduced production of the natural substance strikes me as one of the safer forms of medical intervention. And while its use could be reduced by relying on more transfusions, the latter have problems, too. HIV took the medical community totally by surprise in the early 1980s, and there is no guarantee that some new unscreened for virus will not appear in the future. I suspect this is an issue that has to be addressed on a case by case basis, rather than making a sweeping generalization that EPO should not be used.

Anyway, while I'm not going to encourage any athlete to take EPO, the micro-dosing that cyclists seem to have developed in response to EPO testing and passports is probably quite safe. Particularly since blood doping of any kind is mostly done sporadically, for targeted competitions, unlike, say, steroid use, which is very valuable in training or to build up muscle over the long term.
 
Jan 27, 2010
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Neoplasia, in general, tends to prosper in any environment with lots of glucose/monosaccharides and hormones (endogenous or exogenous).

For example; breast, prostate, thyroid, testicular, ovarian, endometrial, pituitary, GIST, hepatocellular and some types of cholangiocarcinomas. The hormonal effects are less likely to affect brain, pancreatic and bowel tumours...again generally speaking.

All tumours enjoy hypervascular states...but I don't think its the RBCs (augmented by EPO) that assist in tumour growth its the other plasma factors and again...sugar(especially refined sugars).

So, I don't think EPO causes cancer or even assists in its chaotic growth. Test and GH...yikes that's a whole other level of bad.

NW
 
Aug 10, 2010
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veganrob said:
Antibiotics produced mainly by fermentation. Small amount semi synthetic. Maybe you could provide proof to support your other statements
I'd vote for many of the psychoactive drugs. Schizophrenics, for example, can live a functional life with the aid of those drugs.
 
Aug 4, 2009
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ElChingon said:
That's why you buy organic to avoid those pesticides.
Dont beleive all that junk make you own then you know what is in it. maybe
I have an orange tree and cant get r4id of them there is too many on it.

But we live 10 km from an oil refinery so who knows what is in the acid rain.

Just keep away from Doctors they are biggest drug pushers they call it a medical practice so what do you expect? Someone to practice on you.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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joe_papp said:
I'll let you all know if I have cancer or heart disease or some other side-effect/condition in 15 years...
Make sure you'll let us know about the left ventricular hypertrophy as well, stemming from steroids . It'll show up in an autopsy, so you may want to make arrangements to pass on the info well in advance.
 
Jul 12, 2010
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Quote form article :

“Sixty billion dollars have gone out the window on these drugs, and what do we have to show for it?” asked Dennis Cotter, president of Medical Technology and Practice Patterns, a nonprofit health policy research institute in Bethesda, Md. Citing government estimates that as much as $800 billion in health care expenses may be wasted annually, Mr. Cotter said, “It’s time we had a sound way of assessing the value of these technologies.”

I would say 7 Tour de France Titles, no?
 
Sep 10, 2009
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The United States is among only a few industrialized countries that do not routinely assess whether new drugs or devices are worth providing to patients whose care is paid for by the government. Those decisions are largely left up to doctors, many of whom have financial incentives to use the drugs or devices.
Not to go all political, but jesus h christ the US health care "system" sucks. And yes, I am American.
Indeed, doctors in the United States used far more Epogen, Aranesp and Procrit than doctors in Europe and elsewhere who did not profit from their use.
Well probably because most of the European supply is stashed in Ricco's closet.
 
Neoplasia, in general, tends to prosper in any environment with lots of glucose/monosaccharides and hormones (endogenous or exogenous).

For example; breast, prostate, thyroid, testicular, ovarian, endometrial, pituitary, GIST, hepatocellular and some types of cholangiocarcinomas. The hormonal effects are less likely to affect brain, pancreatic and bowel tumours...again generally speaking.
The sugar-cancer connection is fairly controversial; some, but by no means all, cancer researchers accept some kind of causative link. But there are other good reasons for reducing sugar intake. Hormonal effects are important, but this is just the point. EPO is not specific for erythroid cells. There are studies showing that EPO can induce proliferation, angiogenesis, and other growth-promoting effects in other types of cells. Also, EPO and EPO receptors are expressed in many types of tumor cells, suggesting they may regulate their growth.

All tumours enjoy hypervascular states...but I don't think its the RBCs (augmented by EPO) that assist in tumour growth its the other plasma factors and again...sugar (especially refined sugars).
If that were the case, EPO would be preferable to transfusions.

I'd vote for many of the psychoactive drugs. Schizophrenics, for example, can live a functional life with the aid of those drugs.
Psychotropic drugs actually are an excellent illustration of both the benefits and drawbacks of pharmacological treatments. I agree completely with your statement, but the key word is “functional”. These drugs can bring clarity, coherence and mental stability to people with mood disorders, succeeding in cases where no amount of conventional psychotherapy has helped. They allow these people to hold a job and in general integrate themselves into society.

The problem is that these drugs, particularly the reuptake inhibitors, have very unpleasant side effects, to the point where individuals will often stop taking them. The fact that the patient will stop taking the drug shows you right there that from the patient’s point of view—in contrast to those of people surrounding him—these drugs are not an improvement. Life is more than function, it’s also being or experience. It’s possible to live an outwardly normal life while enduring a living hell.

Make sure you'll let us know about the left ventricular hypertrophy as well, stemming from steroids
Enlargement of the heart is quite common just from athletic exercise. I was surprised to find that I have it. I’ve never taken steroids, but was told this was quite consistent with a lot of bike riding.
 
Aug 1, 2009
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ElChingon said:
Well some synthesized pharmaceuticals may increase life expectancy for one individual it but it also increases the life of bad genes, prolonging the existence of genetic defects in humanity.
As you asked of me, can you provide evidence of that?

It's unprovable.
 
Sep 22, 2010
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dbrower said:
The problems with most "natural" drugs are that they don't work reliably, repeatably, or predictably.

-dB
Nope, "natural" drugs like Aspirin don't work at all. I mean come on, getting a pain reliever from the bark of a Willow tree? That's just silly.;)
 
Dec 21, 2010
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mmedeast said:
Nope, "natural" drugs like Aspirin don't work at all. I mean come on, getting a pain reliever from the bark of a Willow tree? That's just silly.
Really, so how do all of us who cannot use Paracetamol or such get on? Very strange that I personally get MUCH better relief of pain related to inflammation with Asprin than the other classes of OTC painkillers.

If you understood the properties of asprin, what the active ingredient is and it's actions in the human body, then you might not post such drivel.
 

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