http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/former-tour-pro-sets-masters-hour-record/
So many red flags...do they bother doing any testing at all with masters?
So many red flags...do they bother doing any testing at all with masters?
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Norman Alvis - Master's Hour Recoed
- Thread starter idunno
- Start date
idunno said:
Of course they do. Testing is required for a world record to be ratified and starting this year for national records also.
You can see for yourself that he was tested earlier in the year when he set the US hour record at 48.122 in June or so. If you check back in a week or so you'll see that number go up to reflect his test from last Friday.
Also, you understand that the record was set at altitude (~6,000') and indoors (front disk).
Way to go Norm! You kicked @$$
You crushed K. Metcalfe and the CA anti-aging crowd that spent $100,000 last July.
This time you did it without water, on a bike that anyone can buy and took a whiz quiz.
Always a fan......
You crushed K. Metcalfe and the CA anti-aging crowd that spent $100,000 last July.
This time you did it without water, on a bike that anyone can buy and took a whiz quiz.
Always a fan......
UncleChainwhip said:
Hi. Kevin Metcalfe here. I hate to break it to you, but we probably spent less on our attempts than Norm. Loaner bike (BMC TM01 road bike), borrowed wheels, the attempt cost including airfare and lodging was cheaper than what Colorado Springs would have cost.
Airfare: $571
Hotel: $25/night per person
Attempt cost: $1400
Drug testing: $450
For my 2km record the next day, the cost was an additional $100 for the attempt and another $450 for the drug test.
Colorado Springs wanted $2500 for the attempt. USADA would be no cost in the US, but still cheaper to fly to Mexico vs. fly to Colorado Springs. And I only did it once. Norm did it in the spring and then just last week, so I'm thinking that he's spent more on this adventure than I have.
Norm and I had lunch in Colorado Springs in August when I was in town for Pikes Peak. I passed on whatever I could of the things I had learned from others that might help him. (skin suits, tires, pressure, socks, chain prep, etc.) He went farther than I did, though he's in a younger group than me. (I'm 56.) Next year he may very well take my record from me. If so, I'll be sad, but Norm is a good guy, a great rider and would deserve it.
For the record, I rode 49.121 km. Norm rode 49.392km.
Since this is "The Clinic" you all might be interested to know that I brought my own packaged chicken from home for meals as clenbuterol in livestock is a known issue in Mexico.
https://www.usada.org/clenbuterol-and-meat-contamination/
Also, though I know that the clinic doesn't think this means anything, I've been drug tested a total of three times this year. Once after breaking the 55+ 40km record in June and twice in Mexico.
I'd love to hear how you came up with $100,000 for our cost...
Whoops, apologize for 'fat cat' reference, meant total entourage.
You listed $2500 but there is so much more......
Thought you paid for the bike and ancillary equipment, had a job you missed, stayed there more than 1 day, and had someone helping you. Several athletes raced there, no? No family or sponsors there? Estimate was based on 20 people x $5,000. Drug testing has got cheaper in the last 30yrs. UCI commisaires used to be rare. Mexican vacation cheaper than i thought. Not afraid of chicken though, just buy your way around testing down there, well-documented.
Your record certainly more hardscrabble than Norm's to me. He is very well connected to pro sponsorship, USAC darling and lives by the track. They even put up the circus tent early this year! Glad he didn't get 'chicked' by E. Stevens' 47.9km ride up there in 2016------now THAT was an expensive effort. Way to go Kevin! You're an evergreen!!
You listed $2500 but there is so much more......
Thought you paid for the bike and ancillary equipment, had a job you missed, stayed there more than 1 day, and had someone helping you. Several athletes raced there, no? No family or sponsors there? Estimate was based on 20 people x $5,000. Drug testing has got cheaper in the last 30yrs. UCI commisaires used to be rare. Mexican vacation cheaper than i thought. Not afraid of chicken though, just buy your way around testing down there, well-documented.
Your record certainly more hardscrabble than Norm's to me. He is very well connected to pro sponsorship, USAC darling and lives by the track. They even put up the circus tent early this year! Glad he didn't get 'chicked' by E. Stevens' 47.9km ride up there in 2016------now THAT was an expensive effort. Way to go Kevin! You're an evergreen!!
Is there a reason we have age-specific "world records" at all? Surely, the whole point of a world record is it is the very best in the world - if you start adding criteria to it then it all becomes a bit diluted. Now, I realize here in California, masters cycling is more important than elite cycling (but that's another story) but having records for age groups strikes me as a bit needy.
Re:
Is there a reason we have old people at all? Surely the whole point of living is domination--if you start considering old people as valuable then it all becomes a bit diluted. Now, I realize there in California, old people are a little more respected than elsewhere (but that's another story) but caring about old people at all strikes me as a bit needy.
TrackCynic said:
Is there a reason we have old people at all? Surely the whole point of living is domination--if you start considering old people as valuable then it all becomes a bit diluted. Now, I realize there in California, old people are a little more respected than elsewhere (but that's another story) but caring about old people at all strikes me as a bit needy.
Re:
In the olden days there were 6 different elite world hour record categories, covering indoor/outdoor, pro/amateur and above/below 600m altitude. 12 if you added gender to the mix.
Now days you have to meet a range of other criteria such that it excludes many from even making an attempt.
Then there are a whole range of criteria for WRs in various other athletic endeavours....
This thread, or more to the point it's placement, is ridiculous.
All records have criteria attached, even elite WRs, which means they too are only about the best that meet certain arbitrary criteria. I suppose in your world women don't count?TrackCynic said:
In the olden days there were 6 different elite world hour record categories, covering indoor/outdoor, pro/amateur and above/below 600m altitude. 12 if you added gender to the mix.
Now days you have to meet a range of other criteria such that it excludes many from even making an attempt.
Then there are a whole range of criteria for WRs in various other athletic endeavours....
This thread, or more to the point it's placement, is ridiculous.
Re: Re:
The difference between "real life" and sport is that by the time you get to masters age it should be about fun - you've had your crack at being an elite in your 20s/30s - anything else should be recreational fun. Although I do not think there is anything remotely suspicious about these attempts, there is a wider issue of people taking USA masters racing too seriously that HAS led to doping by amateur old guys. Meanwhile, the sport is withering on the vine because there aren't enough juniors or elite age racers coming through, or the ones that do get very little moral or practical support from the masters who are too busy aiming for late-years glory. Contrast that with other countries where there is healthy "passing the baton" attitude from masters.
MarkvW said:
The difference between "real life" and sport is that by the time you get to masters age it should be about fun - you've had your crack at being an elite in your 20s/30s - anything else should be recreational fun. Although I do not think there is anything remotely suspicious about these attempts, there is a wider issue of people taking USA masters racing too seriously that HAS led to doping by amateur old guys. Meanwhile, the sport is withering on the vine because there aren't enough juniors or elite age racers coming through, or the ones that do get very little moral or practical support from the masters who are too busy aiming for late-years glory. Contrast that with other countries where there is healthy "passing the baton" attitude from masters.
Whew!
Just when i started cranking up the sympathy machine, turns out that Danish junior riding at sea level didn't take 3' out of Alvis.
He failed the $450 test, must have been an amateur......
Back to the lab, Dexter
Just when i started cranking up the sympathy machine, turns out that Danish junior riding at sea level didn't take 3' out of Alvis.
He failed the $450 test, must have been an amateur......
Back to the lab, Dexter
Re: Re:
When you become old you may think differently. Maybe everyone should be sent to Valhalla when they reach 30 a la Logans Run ?
MarkvW said:
When you become old you may think differently. Maybe everyone should be sent to Valhalla when they reach 30 a la Logans Run ?
UncleChainwhip said:
Ooops, big mistake, THAT positive drug test for DMBA was yesterday's Chrono Des Nations winner, Martin Toft Madsen, back in January 2017 when he went 52.114km.
The 18yo, current U23 World TT champ is NOT a junior, but is a professional. Mikkel Bjerg to be applauded for his 52.311km mark at sea level at Odense with scintillating world championship form. As a professional, perhaps a greater achievement is his contract for next year which is rumored to be one of the most lucrative ever for a second year senior rider.
Excellent explanation Kevin, it's nice to get some behind-the-scenes info that a lot of us here would probably be unaware of otherwise.
Not everyone in the Clinic thinks everyone that rides a bike is a doper, although it's not surprising that lot's of Masters get busted.nslckevin said:
Thanks for breaking down your costs and giving us insight into your record ride. It's not often we get to hear the facts straight from the horses mouth.
Cheers
Kevin if you dont mind me asking, was your bike tested and if so what kind of testing was it subjected to?
Same question of course for Norman if he happens to check in.
Same question of course for Norman if he happens to check in.
Norman is a great man who won the Herald Sun tour in the 1980's - Actually another forum favorite Shane Sutton won the Herald Sun Tour.
Re:
It was checked for weight and for dimensions with the UCI jig. They didn't check for a motor. From what Norm wrote it sounds like they did the same checks for him. He mentioned having to change his aero bar angle or extension length (can't remember which) shortly before his ride to be compliant.
I just came back from Geezer track worlds. For each event you needed to bring your bike to be checked for weight and dimensions. For both mass start and individual events. We set a WR in the team pursuit and after that they checked our bikes again and took pictures to send the UCI. But again, no motor checks.
Kevin
sniper said:
It was checked for weight and for dimensions with the UCI jig. They didn't check for a motor. From what Norm wrote it sounds like they did the same checks for him. He mentioned having to change his aero bar angle or extension length (can't remember which) shortly before his ride to be compliant.
I just came back from Geezer track worlds. For each event you needed to bring your bike to be checked for weight and dimensions. For both mass start and individual events. We set a WR in the team pursuit and after that they checked our bikes again and took pictures to send the UCI. But again, no motor checks.
Kevin
Much appreciated, Kevin.
Would be interested in your views on the motor issue.
Do you think it is at all an issue, or is it much ado about nothing?
If cyclists can be tempted to stick needles in their arms, certainly they can be tempted to put a motor in their bike, too, especially seeing as there is hardly any testing?
In your view, is motordoping worse than 'old school' doping?
Is there mutual trust among the guys you compete with or are there guys out there you are suspicious of?
Would be interested in your views on the motor issue.
Do you think it is at all an issue, or is it much ado about nothing?
If cyclists can be tempted to stick needles in their arms, certainly they can be tempted to put a motor in their bike, too, especially seeing as there is hardly any testing?
In your view, is motordoping worse than 'old school' doping?
Is there mutual trust among the guys you compete with or are there guys out there you are suspicious of?
Re:
I think that motor doping is even more pitiful than drugs. At least a drug doper is still doing to work to get strong (though drug assisted) and doing all of the work themselves on the bike.
On the other hand, I think that e-bikes are a great thing. A friend of mine got his hip replaced and was able to ease back into riding and training on an e-bike where he could still commute without having to generate a whole lot of power. Also a couple of months ago passed a hand cycle on Mt. Diablo that had electric assist. I can't even imagine how hard a 10 mile climb is on a hand cycle and I think the electric assist is great as it opens up more places for those bike to realistically ride.
I am sure that some of the masters guys I race against, whether it's local, nationals or worlds are on the scooby snacks. I have no idea who and my feeling is to not care or think about it. Not that I don't want them to either stop or get busted, but I'm not going to "go there" in races and worry about who is or isn't doping. Some people basically seem to have their local version of the "Millar line" where they just assume that anybody who win's must be cheating. If that's the way a person feels, why even bother? If I get beat, I just assume that on that day somebody, or many somebody's ;-) were better than me that day. If I start to think "they are on drugs", then all I'm doing is giving myself an excuse for losing and giving up. *** that.
I'd be shocked if anybody I race against is motor doping. I think if I found out that somebody was I'd just laugh at them.
Kevin
sniper said:
I think that motor doping is even more pitiful than drugs. At least a drug doper is still doing to work to get strong (though drug assisted) and doing all of the work themselves on the bike.
On the other hand, I think that e-bikes are a great thing. A friend of mine got his hip replaced and was able to ease back into riding and training on an e-bike where he could still commute without having to generate a whole lot of power. Also a couple of months ago passed a hand cycle on Mt. Diablo that had electric assist. I can't even imagine how hard a 10 mile climb is on a hand cycle and I think the electric assist is great as it opens up more places for those bike to realistically ride.
I am sure that some of the masters guys I race against, whether it's local, nationals or worlds are on the scooby snacks. I have no idea who and my feeling is to not care or think about it. Not that I don't want them to either stop or get busted, but I'm not going to "go there" in races and worry about who is or isn't doping. Some people basically seem to have their local version of the "Millar line" where they just assume that anybody who win's must be cheating. If that's the way a person feels, why even bother? If I get beat, I just assume that on that day somebody, or many somebody's ;-) were better than me that day. If I start to think "they are on drugs", then all I'm doing is giving myself an excuse for losing and giving up. *** that.
I'd be shocked if anybody I race against is motor doping. I think if I found out that somebody was I'd just laugh at them.
Kevin
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