Nuyens appreciation thread

[auscyclefan94]

Personally I think Nuyens deserves a little credit, he rode a tatically superb race but unfortunately he hasn't earnt much credit because of other discussions. I just thought a bit of discussion about him would be fair as he was superb. Where has this change come from for Nuyens? What can he do at roubaix?

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

I think the only thing that changed is his luck. Could already have won in 2007 or 2008 with the luck he had this year...

 

[Cimber]

Personally I think Nuyens deserves a little credit, he rode a tatically superb race but unfortunately he hasn't earnt much credit because of other discussions. I just thought a bit of discussion about him would be fair as he was superb. Where has this change come from for Nuyens? What can he do at roubaix?

+1

Yes he really derserves a lot of credit. Tactically he did very well in the end.

Regarding Roubaix: He isnt riding it. He is focusing on Amstel.

 

[Ferminal]

He should get credit for winning, yes.

Tactically he was the best (or the luckiest?), obviously he made better decisions than Boonen and Gilbert.

Was he clearly stronger than any of the top10? No... which is why he probably isn't getting the appreciation he deserves for winning a Monument.

 

[Cimber]

He should get credit for winning, yes.

Tactically he was the best (or the luckiest?), obviously he made better decisions than Boonen and Gilbert.

Was he clearly stronger than any of the top10? No... which is why he probably isn't getting the appreciation he deserves for winning a Monument.

Actually that should earn him even more appreciation: that he won against all odds. That he won despite not being the strongest.

 

[Barrus]

Personally I think Nuyens deserves a little credit, he rode a tatically superb race but unfortunately he hasn't earnt much credit because of other discussions. I just thought a bit of discussion about him would be fair as he was superb. Where has this change come from for Nuyens? What can he do at roubaix?

I don't know if he rode a tactically superb race, without Devolder I doubt he would've regained connection to the favourites. At many crucial times he was completely in the wrong position and it is only due to luck or due to the fact that others, most often Devolder, were also caught out, that he even was in the front group. His position really was lousy the entire race, with the exception of the moment at de Muur

 

[Ferminal]

Actually that should earn him even more appreciation: that he won against all odds. That he won despite not being the strongest.

Why? When the strongest doesn't win people look for answers as to why that didn't happen - be that a crash, poor tactics, a mechanical or something else.

When the strongest wins there is often no excuses, people find it difficult to question the victory. If Cancellara won solo from 40km, people would be annoyed, but no one would question the scale of his achievement.

Nuyens victory was a combination of surviving, superior tactics, and several factors beyond his control.

At least that is how I approach things.

For you personally, would you say it's one of the best performances in a monument over the last few years, because it seemed so unlikely for most of the race?

 

[Cimber]

I don't know if he rode a tactically superb race, without Devolder I doubt he would've regained connection to the favourites. At many crucial times he was completely in the wrong position and it is only due to luck or due to the fact that others, most often Devolder, were also caught out, that he even was in the front group. His position really was lousy the entire race, with the exception of the moment at de Muur

Agree, he didnt ride a superb tactical race overall, but he did ride the finaly tactically superb (i.e the last 20-30k).

 

[Winterfold]

He didn't ride a very good race tactically, and he wasn't the strongest - but he won?

How does that work then?

If you're not the strongest then you must ride tactically and as he won his tactics were clearly the best on the day.

He should probably buy BMC a few beers though

 

[Cimber]

.

Nuyens victory was a combination of surviving, superior tactics, and several factors beyond his control.

In cycling there are always factors beyond the rider's control. Also for the strongest rider.

What is charming about the strongest rider not always winning is that it underpins that cycling isnt all about the power in your legs. Its also about being smart, plan ahead, conserve energy, team tactics etc etc. It also makes cycling a little less predictable.

Also u ask "why?". This is the simple answer: It would be much more impressive if I outsprinted Bolts than if he outsptrinted me, even if I did it by outsmarting him. Its nice when sometimes an outsider wins due to cleverness and coolness. Its like the old children story book telling the story about the turtle outrunning the hare using smart tactics.

Summa summarum: I really like when once in a while an outsider wins. I think it derserves recognition when an outsider outsmarts the favorite, even if the favorite is stronger on the day.

.
For you personally, would you say it's one of the best performances in a monument over the last few years, because it seemed so unlikely for most of the race? .

Depends how u define "best". Strongest performance? no. Strong performance? Yes. Tactically clever ridden finale? yes.

With RVV its hard to pick a "best" cos all of editions of the race are good, and the winner is always strong (albeit not necessesarily THE strongest). This edition of the race was very exciting, one of the most exciting races in years, and I personally liked that an outsider won. Make no mistake about it: to win RVV u have to be strong. A weak rides never claims it. But the beauty of cycling, esp one day races, is that u need to be strong but even if there is someone stronger than u, u can still win if u play your cars well. A RVV-winner is always a well-deserved winner.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Nuyens rode a tactically flawless race, winning the race the only way he could.
He's not even a wheel follower by nature. I seem to recall his semi wins (HV certainly) came from a big, early attack.

He won the Dwars 10 days ago, from being last man standing in a 4-man break, having done by far the most work in the process.

Spring races are and should remain, the master class in tactical racing.

 

[theyoungest]

Nuyens rode a tactically flawless race, winning the race the only way he could.
He's not even a wheel follower by nature. I seem to recall his semi wins (HV certainly) came from a big, early attack.

He won the Dwars 10 days ago, from being last man standing in a 4-man break, having done by far the most work in the process.

Spring races are and should remain, the master class in tactical racing.

Lol, a tactically flawless race. You do know that at some point he was in the third chase group, which Devolder brought back all on his own?

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

yeah there was massive luck involved in this win.
That being said he rode the finale well, picked the right move to follow, and had the luxury of having possibly the two most spent guys with him.

It was a great race, but I don't think anyone had a calm grasp of tactics yesterday, it was very much all over the place.

Take nothing away from Nuyens tho, excellent ride by everyone who was amongst it in the end.

 

[Cimber]

Lol, a tactically flawless race. You do know that at some point he was in the third chase group, which Devolder brought back all on his own?

Agree he made some mistakes early in the race, but he rode a tactically superb finale (last 30k or so)

 

[Ferminal]

Also u ask "why?". This is the simple answer: It would be much more impressive if I outsprinted Bolts than if he outsptrinted me, even if I did it by outsmarting him. Its nice when sometimes an outsider wins due to cleverness and coolness. Its like the old children story book telling the story about the turtle outrunning the hare using smart tactics.

But you would never run a WR time, maybe you can run sub-11, so say you beat Usain with a time of 10.50... maybe he slipped, fell over, whatever.

The next time, Usain runs 9.50 and smashes you.

What is the more impressive performance? The one where you beat the fastest man ever, or the one where the fastest man ever sets a new world record, and blitzes the field?

Or a real world example:

Salt Lake City 2002 1000m Short Track Final... the field falls over, Bradbury wins. Someone with no chance at any stage of the race manages to win, an amazing result, but that doesn't change the fact that he was fifth strongest in a race of five.

Torino 2006 1000m Short Track Final... Ahn Hyun-Soo, who fell in the infamous final four years earlier, wins gold, breaking the olympic record.

Which sporting performance should we appreciate more?

Obviously that is very extreme compared to a cyclist surviving all day and winning from a group of three, but the principle is the same.

Depends how u define "best". Strongest performance? no. Strong performance? Yes. Tactically clever ridden finale? yes.

Best as a combination of all factors. Nuyens won yesterday so obviously he was the best on that day. But was it a better performance than Cancellara in Roubaix, or Gilbert in Lombardia?

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Nuyens is still the same rider he was at Rabobank, Cofidis and Quick Step. He hasn't gotten any stronger or anything. But this time, every puzzle piece fell just perfectly for Nuyens, thus winning the Ronde.

Let's sum it up, he was practically already beaten at the Koppenberg, when he ended in a 2nd group that was certainly already 25 seconds behind. Normally in RVV, you're finished then, done, but the 1st group didn't ride on, so he could come back.

Then when the favorites went he couldn't follow. Nobody could follow Cancellara, but Nuyens also couldn't follow any of it behind (Boonen/Pozzato, not even the initial Hushovd acceleration). Again, normally, you're done right there.
But again, this flanders was special, the second group dropped back to the peloton, making it Cancellara vs peloton. Again Nuyens got away in a situation he would have normally been finished for the victory.

Then De Muur, while Nuyens did reasonable, he again finished in the second group at the top. In the 1st group where names as Ballan, Cancellara, Chavanel, Gilbert and Leukemans... Normally, you can guess where I'm going, you're finished then. The 5 ride on and go to victory.
But no, in this flanders, the second group kept coming back, this time aided by a superb Geraint Thomas. So again Nuyens was brought back in the race he should have been 'finished' in already 10 times over.

Bosberg, same scenario, dropped again, landed in the second group, again brought back by Thomas (and a bit of Flecha).
And then he chose the right attack to go with, and won the sprint...

Sometimes, you just have a day where everything goes right, even though on a normal day, you would be screwed 10 times over already.
I really don't see where 'tactically superb' gets in here.

 

[Lanark]

Nuyens rode a tactically flawless race, winning the race the only way he could.
He's not even a wheel follower by nature. I seem to recall his semi wins (HV certainly) came from a big, early attack.

He won the Dwars 10 days ago, from being last man standing in a 4-man break, having done by far the most work in the process.

Spring races are and should remain, the master class in tactical racing.

That's a bit like saying Pozzato and Leipheimer are known for their aggressive riding. Nuyens has the reputation of being an extremely conservative rider, never doing his share of the work in a breakaway, rarely attacking himself, always responding to other riders. In fact during last years Belgian championship he was wheelsucking so bad that Leukemans, who used to be his best friend for years (Nuyens even supported Leukemans when he was positive) doesn't want to talk to him anymore.

Now his reputation might be exaturated, and for some part you can't blame him (if he rides aggressively like a Cancellara or Gilbert, he'll never win a race), but he is certainly known as a wheelsucker. That was one of the reasons his win in Dwars door Vlaanderen was so impressive, the Belgian commentator even said it was the first time he won something by himself.


I think the best thing he did yesterday was keeping calm. He wasn't the strongest (on the Bosberg he was in the same group as Boonen and Langeveld), but in the beginning of the race after the Kwaremont when he was behind, he kept his cool and let Devolder do the work, with the group of 12 at the end he did one small attack, but stopped riding when he saw it had no chance. When Cancellara attacks in the last kilometers of a classic it doesn't take a genius to figure out you have to be in his wheel, that wasn't the smart part of Nuyens riding, what was smart was that unlike guys like Gilbert, Langeveld, Flecha and Ballan who wasted their energy attacking and chasing each other, he bided his time and waited for that one moment, and grasped it when it presented itself.

 

[Cimber]

Best as a combination of all factors. Nuyens won yesterday so obviously he was the best on that day.

Thats all I am saying. He was the best on the day, even if he wasnt the strongest. I am not saying that it is the best win ever. But he deserves credit for his win yesterday. A credit alot of ppl dont give him cos Fabian and Chav were stronger. If u beat the guys who r physically stronger that yourself in a demanding and selective race and RVV it really deserves alot of credit.

But was it a better performance than Cancellara in Roubaix, or Gilbert in Lombardia?

Ah thats really in the eye of the beholder, and what aspect of a race u fancy. Obviously Fabians wins in in RVV and PRB last year were better perfomances speaking from a physical point of view. From a tactical/smartness point of view it might be different tough.

When u are not the strongest guy u have to be the smart and clever. Thats also also part of the "performance". Nuyens wasnt the most clever guy in all of the race (he made mistakes earlier in the race), but he was smart and cool in the final and decisive part of the race and that is a brilliant "performance". I dont like to compare it to wins in other big races one day races as all such wins r a result of great performances.

 

[Mellow Velo]

LOL.
Last week I got hammered by the Dutchies for defending Thomas's alleged wheel sucking against Nuyen's massive amount of graft. A week later a complete turn around.
I certainly am not going to say anything negative about Geraint's magnificent work ethic.

OK, I concede, Nuyens is one lucky SOAB. In the lottery of which wheel to follow for Flanders, he just picked all the right ones.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

He was especially lucky that everytime he was caught in a second or third group, it either

1) fell still in the 1st group
2) the second group had duo's (especially during the finale, thomas/flecha and ballan/hincapie) that brought everything back

It weren't Nuyens choices to make. If he had to chose, he would want to be in the 1st group constantly. But he wasn't good enough on the climbs for that. More than often he landed behind and was merely lucky to be brought back.
This is a simple fact.

 

[rata de sentina]

He was especially lucky that everytime he was caught in a second or third group, it either

1) fell still in the 1st group
2) the second group had duo's (especially during the finale, thomas/flecha and ballan/hincapie) that brought everything back

It weren't Nuyens choices to make. If he had to chose, he would want to be in the 1st group constantly. But he wasn't good enough on the climbs for that. More than often he landed behind and was merely lucky to be brought back.
This is a simple fact.

Well actually there is a lot of interpretation in your post regarding Nuyens thinking so there is no "simple fact" at all. Maybe he was conserving his limited resources for the finale. Maybe he was happy to be in the second group with some super motivated others. Who knows? Believe it or not patience is actually a tactic. But I'm certainly not claiming it was deliberate or otherwise based upon the flimsiest of evidence.

 

[boomcie]

OK, I concede, Nuyens is one lucky SOAB. In the lottery of which wheel to follow for Flanders, he just picked all the right ones.

This is probably right, but heck, he has it in the bag

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Well actually there is a lot of interpretation in your post regarding Nuyens thinking so there is no "simple fact" at all. Maybe he was conserving his limited resources for the finale. Maybe he was happy to be in the second group with some super motivated others. Who knows? Believe it or not patience is actually a tactic. But I'm certainly not claiming it was deliberate or otherwise based upon the flimsiest of evidence.

Well nobody is ever going to convince me that not being with Ballan, Cancellara, Chavanel, Leukemans and Gilbert after de Muur van Geraardsbergen was a 'tactical choice to conserve energy'. Never. That's simply awkward

 

[theyoungest]

LOL.
Last week I got hammered by the Dutchies for defending Thomas's alleged wheel sucking against Nuyen's massive amount of graft. A week later a complete turn around.
I certainly am not going to say anything negative about Geraint's magnificent work ethic.

OK, I concede, Nuyens is one lucky SOAB. In the lottery of which wheel to follow for Flanders, he just picked all the right ones.

"The Dutchies"? All that Dekker_T and me share is our nationality. And apparently the fact that we agree on Nuyens not riding a tactically perfect race, as you suggest.

 

[Angliru]

I'll just say that the victory was poetic justice for Saxo Bank and Riis. It couldn't have been written more eloquently and sweeter. Saxo was given absolutely no chance in the lead up to RVV. With their talent depleted to a bare shadow of what it was last year as a result of the mass exodus to Team Schleck, can anyone say that this result was a possibility? Nuyens rode a smart race, the only race he could've with the limited team support available.
He had to pick and choose when to chase and when sit in. Of course a degree of luck was involved but based on the final result it has to be conceded that he made some wise tactical choices for him to have enough energy to be in the position he was in to have a chance to win the race.

Cancellara was magnificent and relentless. I thought he was done when he was reeled in and then dropped on what I thought was his, becoming signature, race winning attack.

Of course Chavanel benefitted from team tactics, riding Cancellara's wheel with the thought that Boonen would be coming. His ITT talent is probably what allowed him to stay with Cancellara when others struggled to stay in his wake. Chavanel was like a pair of scissors, slowly trimming the hair of Sampson, sapping his strength slowly until the end and yet still unable to gain the victory.