Oscar Pistorius

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Probably a thread somewhere, but search didn't reveal it.

What a revolting farce it is seeing him in the 400m world championships.

If he had any talent he'd be running 42 seconds in his sleep - half expect him to pull it out of the bag in the final in mockery of the process.

 

[Ferminal]

Has been covered extensively by Ross @ The Science of Sport if anyone wants to read.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/08/scientific-interpretation-of-oscar.html
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/08/scientific-evidence-for-advantage-for.html
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/08/pistorius-12-sec-advantage-and.html
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/08/performance-implications-of-pistorius.html

All told, what is the conclusion? The conclusion is that Oscar Pistorius runs a 400m race at a speed that is much, much more like his 200m race pace than any other 200m-400m runner in history. Why might this be? Remember the big picture - you have a theory, you have evidence, and you have a mechanism. All these factors suggest that Pistorius sprints at a lower metabolic cost, with less work required, and therefore, the implication is that as distance increases, his pace declines less than for other athletes.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Jinkies. From the thread title I thought that the most ludicrous "winner" of the TdF ever, Oscar Pereiro, had come out of retirement to run the 400 meters.

 

[Velodude]

Mechanical doping?

Kangaroos are efficient in locomotion as during the landings their legs act like springs and store energy to be released for the next bound - just like this runner's prosthetic carbon fiber "legs".

 

[Bala Verde]

I am glad he is allowed to participate and if he wins, it's even better.

I hope he gives all these 'able bodied' athletes a drubbing.

 

[spalco]

He's not going to win or even get a medal, so I don't see what the big deal is even if his bionic legs give him some kind of advantage.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

He's not going to win or even get a medal, so I don't see what the big deal is even if his bionic legs give him some kind of advantage.

Maybe the posters above fear that promising young runners will start chopping their own legs off to get a chance at the big time.

 

[hrotha]

I am glad he is allowed to participate and if he wins, it's even better.

I hope he gives all these 'able bodied' athletes a drubbing.

Why? Out of pity? If I were disabled that kind of comment would make me puke.

If the prostheses give him an unfair advantage, he shouldn't participate. That's what the Paralympic Games are for.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

He's not going to win or even get a medal, so I don't see what the big deal is even if his bionic legs give him some kind of advantage.

A false precedent has been established. He doesn't need to become much better to medal or win. Technology doesn't need to become much better. And now they've let him run, it becomes much harder to block the next one, who actually has some talent.

He's opened the door for a talented amputee to make a mockery of the sport.

 

[spalco]

I don't see what the mockery is. If he's quick enough to compete, let him run. It's not like he's using a an electric wheelchair or something.

It's said that the German national football team had a significant advantage over its competition at the 1954 World Cup thanks to new shoes by Adidas - is that a mockery too?

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

I don't see what the mockery is. If he's quick enough to compete, let him run. It's not like he's using a an electric wheelchair or something.

It's said that the German national football team had a significant advantage over its competition at the 1954 World Cup thanks to new shoes by Adidas - is that a mockery too?

The mockery is that he's got a massive advantage, and there is already a seperate race for people using that equipment.

Yes, football boots are an exact parallel to equipment that allows you to run faster, for less energy expenditude, in a race that is entirely determined by how fast you can run at a given energy expenditure.

If you honestly think equipment that can turn the 10,000th best in the world in to a world championship contender does not pevert the sport, then fine, this thread is not for you.

 

[spalco]

If you honestly think equipment that can turn the 10,000th best in the world in to a world championship contender does not pevert the sport, then fine, this thread is not for you.

Firstly, you pulled that number out of your ***. You can't possibly know how fast Pistorius would be on his own legs. Secondly, imo it's seld-evidently absurd to think a pair of carbon sticks work better for running than the human leg with all its joints and muscles and sinews and stuff that is the pinnacle of millions of years of development and complaining about that just sounds like sour grapes to me. And thirdly, it's not like he's using those artificial "legs" voluntarily. Call me again when Michael Johnson cuts off his legs and makes a comeback on prostheses.

 

[hrotha]

Secondly, imo it's seld-evidently absurd to think a pair of carbon sticks work better for running than the human leg with all its joints and muscles and sinews and stuff that is the pinnacle of millions of years of development and complaining about that just sounds like sour grapes to me.

What is absurd is to dismiss the serious research that exists on this issue which suggests that, indeed, those carbon sticks do work better. Human legs have not evolved to be particularly fast, so that "pinnacle of evolution" thing is nonsense. Evolution doesn't mean betterment.

 

[gregod]

i had a thought about this and it preliminarily leads me to conclude that he should not be allowed to run.

what sort of safety precautions does he have in the event of a catastrophic carbon fiber failure? if in the event of a bone or ligament failure of a normal runner, the muscles and flesh serve as a support. for this support there is also a weight penalty.

so, unless there is some built in safety mechanism in his legs he has a weight advantage at the expense of safety. a typical world-class 400m runner can hit speeds of about 45 km/h. a carbon fiber failure at that speed would mean a very serious face plant.

 

[spalco]

So, Pistorius last in the semis, happy now?

 

[gregod]

it is moot now. he just came in last in his heat.

 

[hrotha]

So, Pistorius last in the semis, happy now?

The argument is not about Pistorious per se.

 

[spalco]

The argument is not about Pistorious per se.

But the CAS decision was not a precedent, it was definitively about Pistorius and nobody else. If a similar case comes up again sometime in the future it will be decided on its own merit as well.

 

[gregod]

But the CAS decision was not a precedent, it was definitively about Pistorius and nobody else. If a similar case comes up again sometime in the future it will be decided on its own merit as well.

as is should be. do you know if the CAS decision addressed the issues of weight and safety?

 

[spalco]

No, sorry.

 

[hrotha]

But the CAS decision was not a precedent, it was definitively about Pistorius and nobody else. If a similar case comes up again sometime in the future it will be decided on its own merit as well.

The CAS decision is one thing, the discussion at large is another.

 

[Bala Verde]

Why? Out of pity? If I were disabled that kind of comment would make me puke.

If the prostheses give him an unfair advantage, he shouldn't participate. That's what the Paralympic Games are for.

nope. wrong. try again.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Firstly, you pulled that number out of your ***. You can't possibly know how fast Pistorius would be on his own legs. Secondly, imo it's seld-evidently absurd to think a pair of carbon sticks work better for running than the human leg with all its joints and muscles and sinews and stuff that is the pinnacle of millions of years of development and complaining about that just sounds like sour grapes to me. And thirdly, it's not like he's using those artificial "legs" voluntarily. Call me again when Michael Johnson cuts off his legs and makes a comeback on prostheses.

Ok, so your position is based on failing to understand the advantage conferred, and absolutely denying it is possible?

I suggest you read the links at the top of the thread.

 

[spalco]

There are advantages and there are disadvantages, and the CAS ruled that they pretty much even out. Again: It's not an issue until a healthy athlete cuts off his legs to get carbon prostheses. Because if that doesn't happen, obviously live legs must be better.

 

[The Science of Sport]

There are advantages and there are disadvantages, and the CAS ruled that they pretty much even out. Again: It's not an issue until a healthy athlete cuts off his legs to get carbon prostheses. Because if that doesn't happen, obviously live legs must be better.

That's not entirely true. The CAS didn't make the ruling this way because nobody ever did the research that way, which is a major oversight in itself. Without rehashing the entire process, what happened is that the IAAF conducted research which strongly suggested an advantage, and it centered around 2 things - reduced energy cost of running, and completely different mechanics of running.

The Pistorius research then, was perfectly primed because all they had to do was cast doubt on the IAAF research. It's a pretty farcical state of affairs for the science, but anyway.

So what they did in the Pistorius research is to put him on a treadmill and make him run at a series of slow speeds (the fastest he ran was 15km/hour, before he fatigued after 5 minutes) and measure his oxygen use. They did this for Pistorius and a number of other sprinters.

Result - Pistorius used 17% less oxygen, which is important because oxygen is a barometer for metabolic energy use. The way the science was unfolding (PIstorius' lead scientist is a guy who gets big money from Ossur, the company who make the carbon fiber blades), this discovery that Pistorius was so radically different is known as an "OH $H#T finding". So what they then did is go along and look for studies that they could use, and they decided that they'd compare Pistorius to elite and sub-elite DISTANCE runners.

When they did this, then suddenly Pistorius' oxygen use started to look a little more "normal". It was still higher, but close enough, so they concluded that he was "Similar to able bodied runners". This was one of the key scientific findings, astonishingly, to compare a sprinter to a distance runner and say it's normal. Even though five other studies on sprinters show massive differences when compared to Pistorius.

Then came the mechanical data - one of Pistorius' own scientists came out with a paper where he said that the advantage was enormous. He made some mistakes in trying to estimate how large the advantage was, and that was in the end a foolish thing to do, but understandable. Point was, Pistorius is not really even "running" in the way that we understand it. His legs move faster than any runner ever seen, his forces are lower than any runner seen. And so what you have is a theory, proven by the finding, and then explained by the mechanics.

CAS of course didn't consider this, because the scientist who thought there was an advantage did not get a chance to go to CAS and present it. It was all about disproving the IAAF study, so an incomplete science question.

So to answer you, CAS didn't make this judgment. And no, it's not obvious. The mistake you're making is to try to imagine that there is an advantage compared to legs. Don't imagine, just read the evidence...

Ross