Pantani 99 vs Armstrong 99

[doperhopper]

Saw this thread in the normal section, but how can one discuss anything of that era without clinical aspects?

So, would Il Pirata smoke the ball out of Uniballer if he went to the Tour?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Pantani vs Lance in '99 would have been a great event. Damn Pantani for failing his Hct test!

Lance would probably have shaded it due to Pantani being fatigued from the Giro and there being two long ITTs.

 

[Benotti69]

Who cares, one is dead and the other would've done well for his legacy to have done similar, would've been the cancer jesus for evermore.........

 

[thehog]

Tomorrow's Gazetta has a story that Pantani was killed. Forced to drink cocaine and was beaten to death. (Yes drink).

Further news to follow they say.

"Fu Ucciso" - was killed. The case will be reopened.

 

[the sceptic]

Tomorrow's Gazetta has a story that Pantani was killed. Forced to drink cocaine and was beaten to death. (Yes drink).

Further news to follow they say.

"Fu Ucciso" - was killed. The case will be reopened.

Well that is certainly big news gazzetta doesnt usually just make stuff up do they?

 

[thehog]

Well that is certainly big news gazzetta doesnt usually just make stuff up do they?

It's been confirmed that the magistrate will re-open the case and investigate. But they appear to say they have declared it wasn't a suicide or accident death.

The wheels of Italian justice could have it solved in a week or 10 years.

 

[The Hitch]

This sport.

 

[hrotha]

"Beaten to death"? That tends to leave obvious outward signs.

 

[Gavandope]

It's been confirmed that the magistrate will re-open the case and investigate. But they appear to say they have declared it wasn't a suicide or accident death.

The wheels of Italian justice could have it solved in a week or 10 years.

How can it take 10 years for an autopsy's findings to be contradicted? I'm no Quincy CSI but bruises from beatings and restraint, gut samples would be slightly obvious to anyone bar Stevie wonder M.D. surely?

Nothing to do with enlarged heart valves due to roids and Edgar pumping red syrup for years and excess coke redlining his BP of course.

Would love to read a translation - cos Gazzeta seems to be running a story worthy of the Onion or for Brits the Sunday sport.

First Oleg's tweet hack and now this. I must be dreaming, better sleepwalk to bed.

 

[mewmewmew13]

This sport.

I am never amazed..
much..

and just saw comment above ^^^^ lol

 

[sittingbison]

Well that is certainly big news gazzetta doesnt usually just make stuff up do they?

Gazzetta is not the Clinic

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

''Marco Pantani, therefore, would have been beaten and forced to drink the cocaine while he was in his hotel room. This is the new hypothesis of the investigation conducted by the chief prosecutor of Rimini, which upheld the complaint of the family Pantani. They weigh the findings of the new survey conducted by professor Avato, according to which large quantities of narcotic found in Pantani's body can be taken only if diluted in water.''

Who knows.

 

[deValtos]

Pantani's family had been suggesting he was killed for over 10 years now. What changed ?

As to the topic, imo Uniballer would've won, 120km's of ITT and not enough mountains. Pantani would've had much more success in this modern era where the TT's are being reduced ...

 

[Le breton]

Pantani's family had been suggesting he was killed for over 10 years now. What changed ?

As to the topic, imo Uniballer would've won, 120km's of ITT and not enough mountains. Pantani would've had much more success in this modern era where the TT's are being reduced ...

1998
20- Montceau-les-Mines-Le Creusot 52 km
contre-la-montre

1. Jan Ullrich en 1h03'52"
2. Julich à 1'01"
3. Pantani à 2'35"
4. Baranowski à 3'11"
5. Teteriouk à 3'46"
6. Ekimov à 3'48"
7. Rinero à 3'50"
8. Forconi à 3'55"
9. Merckx à 3'59"
10. R.Meier à 4'29"

 

[Cookster15]

''Marco Pantani, therefore, would have been beaten and forced to drink the cocaine while he was in his hotel room. This is the new hypothesis of the investigation conducted by the chief prosecutor of Rimini, which upheld the complaint of the family Pantani. They weigh the findings of the new survey conducted by professor Avato, according to which large quantities of narcotic found in Pantani's body can be taken only if diluted in water.''

Who knows.

What would be the motivation to do this?

 

[deValtos]

1998
20- Montceau-les-Mines-Le Creusot 52 km
contre-la-montre

1. Jan Ullrich en 1h03'52"
2. Julich à 1'01"
3. Pantani à 2'35"
4. Baranowski à 3'11"
5. Teteriouk à 3'46"
6. Ekimov à 3'48"
7. Rinero à 3'50"
8. Forconi à 3'55"
9. Merckx à 3'59"
10. R.Meier à 4'29"

That was at the end of the tour (good recovery though the mountains), he lost 4"21 on the first TT and another 48 seconds on the prologue. Considering the TT's in 1999 were of similar length (115.7km in 98) and at roughly the same stages in the race I think it's fair to assume that Patani loses roughly the same time ... so that's 7"44 to make up on LA. Not going to happen with those mountain stages ...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I think it´s pretty simple: If Ullrich couldn´t beat LA on full fuel in 5 tries, there is no way Pantani wins vs LA in 1999. Even if there was 0 km of ITTs. So now next thread please...

 

[Granville57]

So, would Il Pirata smoke the ball out of Uniballer if he went to the Tour?

Nope.

Nothing was going to, or ever did, stop Armstrong during his run. Nothing.

 

[Le breton]

Nope.

Nothing was going to, or ever did, stop Armstrong during his run. Nothing.

Nope, nothing,
and certainly not
Verbruggen
or J-M Leblanc!

Not to mention Zulle and the passage du Gois.

 

[Dr. Juice]

Like someone mentioned here earlier: Pantani's climbing form in '99 was probably the limit of human ability under those doping rules. 41 minutes Alpe d' Huez that year? Would have put in 36:30 or sth like that - new record, he was much better than in 1997 or 1995. Even assuming LA could go 2 minutes faster than they did...in 2001 form with those TT km he probably would have beaten Marco.
Or in 2002 with the form he had + route. In the form from 2000 onwards it would have been close every year due to the long TT's.

LA was climbing the mountains around 1 minute slower in his prime. I firmly believe he wasn't that strong in '99. 4th at the Vuelta the year before, just having become world class. Needed another year of hard training to perform at the level he did later.

And to say "If Ulllrich didn't manage in 5 attempts.." . This washed up Ullrich from 2000 onwards...not even comparable to Pantani or his former self.

You could see the form of Ullrich looking at his TT's. 2003 or 96-98, good or great form. Otherwise average form. Should have been smashing the TT every year with his ability + gain 4-5 minutes on the likes of Beloki.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Like someone mentioned here earlier: Pantani's climbing form in '99 was probably the limit of human ability under those doping rules. 41 minutes Alpe d' Huez that year? Would have put in 36:30 or sth like that - new record, he was much better than in 1997 or 1995. Even assuming LA could go 2 minutes faster than they did...in 2001 form with those TT km he probably would have beaten Marco.
Or in 2002 with the form he had + route. In the form from 2000 onwards it would have been close every year due to the long TT's.

LA was climbing the mountains around 1 minute slower in his prime. I firmly believe he wasn't that strong in '99. 4th at the Vuelta the year before, just having become world class. Needed another year of hard training to perform at the level he did later.

And to say "If Ulllrich didn't manage in 5 attempts.." . This washed up Ullrich from 2000 onwards...not even comparable to Pantani or his former self.

You could see the form of Ullrich looking at his TT's. 2003 or 96-98, good or great form. Otherwise average form. Should have been smashing the TT every year with his ability + gain 4-5 minutes on the likes of Beloki.

We may saw different races. Ullrich smashed everybody (but one; the rider who came out of nowhere at the 1999 TdF), as usual in the ITTs.
If he didn´t have his "Hunger-Ast" in 1998, he´d have Pantani beaten by circa 5 mins. And this Pantani would have had a chance vs LA? The one LA who nuked the mountain in Sestriere single-handedly? The LA that just beat the Madone record in the summer leading up to the TdF 1999? Pantani would have been shell-shocked and step off his bike, going home...

 

[Jamie1012]

I think Armstrong would probably have won it, but matching - or outclimbing - a Pantani in the mountains who had just destroyed the Giro would presumably have been too much for all but the most credulous, moronic journalists (ie, Wilcockson) to believe, so I don't think the world would have fallen for Armstrong if Pantani had been there.

 

[Granville57]

I don't think the world would have fallen for Armstrong if Pantani had been there.

You make a good point, but it wouldn't have mattered if the world did or did not fall for Armstrong. The U.S. media still would have.

Hence:

New market with vast financial growth possibilities.
Cancer, Trek, etc all benefiting handsomely.
Phil and Paul doing what they've always been paid to do.
A new hero is born.

History has taught us that even the most obvious and egregious violation of "the rules" can easily be overcome with enough propaganda.

With or without Pantani at the TdF in '99, Lance still goes on to be "Lance."

 

[Dr. Juice]

We may saw different races. Ullrich smashed everybody (but one; the rider who came out of nowhere at the 1999 TdF), as usual in the ITTs.
If he didn´t have his "Hunger-Ast" in 1998, he´d have Pantani beaten by circa 5 mins. And this Pantani would have had a chance vs LA? The one LA who nuked the mountain in Sestriere single-handedly? The LA that just beat the Madone record in the summer leading up to the TdF 1999? Pantani would have been shell-shocked and step off his bike, going home...

What I wanted to point out...yes Ullrich beat the other riders in the TT's 2000-2005 but he created monster gaps in 96-98. Leaving Armstrong aside, Ullrich's gap to his opponents was much smaller even in the TT's. He didn't perform as good as in 98. For me 97 Ullrich > 2003 Ullrich = 98 Ullrich > all other versions. The thing with Pantani is....he put in Alpe d' Huez record in 95 ( 36:50 or 36:45 ) and matched his own time in 97. A time when he was not at his best - and still more than a minute faster than Armstrong at HIS best (2001 road race).
Why always Alpe d' Huez as yard stick? Because the climb has over 20 180 grade corners, which evens out head/- tailwind. It's a pity he didn't ride Alpe in 99. Other climbs wind plays a big factor.

I assume he could have trashed Armstrong by 2-3 minutes in a mountain stage, even more so if he attacked from far out. Armstrong had problems dealing with someone who challenged him in the mountains ( 2000 Pantani ), he may have burned himself trying to stay on Pantani's wheel. Ego problems etc. That's why he declared Ullrich as a great champion. He knew he had him under control in the mountains and only in case of Ullrich smashing the TT's he could risk to lose.

Madone record? Only Rominger, T. Hamilton and a few other did ride that mountain. It's irrelevant.

Not that I believe he wouldn't have won against Pantani. But not in 99 against that Pantani, better than ever in TT's, better in climbing than in 98 when he smashed Ullrich ( Hunger Ast - fine, on Les Deux Alpes, after he lost almost 3 minutes on the Galibier, he still would have lost 5-6 minutes without this like Julich --> when you ride against stronger climbers this happens), better than the year when he set the Alpe record.

Opinions are different of course. I saw both in their prime. Unfortunately it didn't happen and does not matter. I saw "the machine" Armstrong every boring year. If he had competed against a better climber than himself, he would have looked much more human, and a day like Joux-Plane 2000 or Ax-3 2003 may have happened more frequently.

 

[Granville57]

Armstrong had problems dealing with someone who challenged him in the mountains ( 2000 Pantani ), he may have burned himself trying to stay on Pantani's wheel. Ego problems etc.

I would agree with this. We saw hints of exactly such a thing when Armstrong went up against Iban Mayo in (I think) the 2004 Dauphinè.

But what isn't being mentioned in all of this is Armstrong's ruthlessness to win at all costs. Or as Floyd has put it: It wasn't about [Armstrong] winning, it was about making the other guy lose.

I am confident that Lance and Co. would've found a way to make Pantani "lose" had he been at the TdF in '99.

There's more that goes on than just what the cameras show us on the road.