Papp list

[washedup]

Maybe I am just getting impatient, but what is going on with the Papp list? We saw the old guy and the kid get busted, and maybe O'bee. The rider from the US championships seemed to have ended the momentum.

Is it still alive or is it dead? Maybe it was a bit embellished.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

The ruling for his sentencing was again delayed. This time until 2011.

It's worth knowing that the documents in his case remain sealed by the court. This is often the case when there is an ongoing investigation. Documents are usually released after sentencing.

I'll let you do the math from there.

 

[TERMINATOR]

Maybe I am just getting impatient, but what is going on with the Papp list? We saw the old guy and the kid get busted, and maybe O'bee. The rider from the US championships seemed to have ended the momentum.

Is it still alive or is it dead? Maybe it was a bit embellished.

I'll answer your question since the Administrator didn't.

The guys who are named in the Papp list are slowly going through the USADA system, which is a confidential process. Once the disposition of each athlete is known, USADA will make it public, just like they did in the O'Bee case.

 

[fatandfast]

Maybe I am just getting impatient, but what is going on with the Papp list? We saw the old guy and the kid get busted, and maybe O'bee. The rider from the US championships seemed to have ended the momentum.

Is it still alive or is it dead? Maybe it was a bit embellished.

A list does not a fact make. Not everybody who shows up on a list is guilty or a criminal. The law enforcement agencies never needed to tell anybody about a list...they have adopted that the element of the media largess is better than the element of surprise. The telegraphing of everything is stupid. Embellished is polite..just like everything in modern media..printing it makes it 90% fact..even when it's 100% false

 

[washedup]

I would imagine being on the list is quite indicative of a crime (or in this case a doping infraction). With the exception of a stolen credit card or something, it seems a bit clean cut.

 

[ElChingon]

I would imagine being on the list is quite indicative of a crime (or in this case a doping infraction). With the exception of a stolen credit card or something, it seems a bit clean cut.

Wow, I guess that's an excuse that might be used if the rider/buyer/orderer in question ever had their identity stolen.

I do agree if you're on that list you bought something that's not legal unless Joe was also selling breath mints.

 

[Benotti69]

I would imagine being on the list is quite indicative of a crime (or in this case a doping infraction). With the exception of a stolen credit card or something, it seems a bit clean cut.

In Italy you get your sister, or in-laws or other family members to get the stuff so they can't trace it back to you..

 

[washedup]

Haha. Sort of like a crime family?

 

[PotentialPro]

Thanks for this post and the replies. I had forgotten that the USADA process is private, and was wondering too why there hadnt been any other announcements on this list. Makes more sense now. There is a thread on Socalcycling.com with Chris DeMarchi making comment about the investigation.

 

[BotanyBay]

Heh, Demarchi. Right.

Let Demarchi & friends go and have their little category all to themselves. It makes it easier for us to identify and segregate these type-a personalities and keep them away.

Why even have "age-based" racing when we have a perfectly fine, 5-level system of "ability-based" racing? I'll tell you why... Because these guys are caught in an ego-trap. They can't win often enough at the elite level anymore, but they still have that need to climb up on top of wooden podiums and receive a new tire. If they stay in the Pro-1-2 category, they see themselves finishing mid-field. Not acceptable to them. They downgrade to Cat 3 and they start winning again (but yuk, they're Cat 3's). What to do next? Masters racing. Filled with the ranks of diminishing elite riders who can't be bothered to get to know their own kids on the weekends.

Bring this argument up and you'll often get back a retort like "Hey man, I often ride both Masters AND PRO-1-2 on the weekends. Yes. You sucked in the 1-2-Pro race and then you and your former elite buds duked it out for the top-10 in the masters category. Real honor-driven stuff! God help the poor SOB who decides to take up racing at age 45. He may as well just always ride Cat 5-4 and 3 (if he makes it to 3). Why? Because the masters category is over-filled with the aging ego junkies.

It does not surprise me that we've got masters dopers in America. Not in the slightest.

 

[Oldman]

Let Demarchi & friends go and have their little category all to themselves. It makes it easier for us to identify and segregate these type-a personalities and keep them away.

Why even have "age-based" racing when we have a perfectly fine, 5-level system of "ability-based" racing? I'll tell you why... Because these guys are caught in an ego-trap. They can't win often enough at the elite level anymore, but they still have that need to climb up on top of wooden podiums and receive a new tire. If they stay in the Pro-1-2 category, they see themselves finishing mid-field. Not acceptable to them. They downgrade to Cat 3 and they start winning again (but yuk, they're Cat 3's). What to do next? Masters racing. Filled with the ranks of diminishing elite riders who can't be bothered to get to know their own kids on the weekends.

Bring this argument up and you'll often get back a retort like "Hey man, I often ride both Masters AND PRO-1-2 on the weekends. Yes. You sucked in the 1-2-Pro race and then you and your former elite buds duked it out for the top-10 in the masters category. Real honor-driven stuff! God help the poor SOB who decides to take up racing at age 45. He may as well just always ride Cat 5-4 and 3 (if he makes it to 3). Why? Because the masters category is over-filled with the aging ego junkies.

It does not surprise me that we've got masters dopers in America. Not in the slightest.

I agree with most of what you say. I started racing after age 35 and had no idea what I was doing or what I could do. After a time I found my level and enjoyed it but knew that the time dedicated to big race travel wasn't realistic. I chose to stay relatively local and raced Masters because they were more accessible. Should I quit racing? It keeps me healthy. I do ride Cat 1,2 events and occasionally Pro-1 crits and one day races but they are rare. I have fun and don't fathom why any amateur could feel good about doping.
As for the former Elites-odds are they were juiced back then and still kid themselves that is the only route to go. Sad, but true everywhere. Ask fellow riders about big Master's races in Europe.

 

[washedup]

Normally, I am very cynical of riders... but do you think it might be possible that not that many masters riders dope? Even if all 25 riders are masters, do you think that is representative of the population?

Don't get me wrong, go after every dude on the list, but don't use it as an excuse each time you are not first to the line.

 

[Willy_Voet]

They can't win often enough at the elite level anymore, but they still have that need to climb up on top of wooden podiums and receive a new tire.

As an almost Masters age rider, I found that quite funny.

I'd say something about Masters races being safer, but the only time I've seen someone try to take another rider out was in the Masters race. Bunch of egos for sure.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

There should NEVER be prize money for Masters' races.

All their entry fees should go to junior development programs and we should all boycott any company that financially sponsors a Master's team.

Stupid old b*stards missed their chance. Give it up, and help the kids that actually have a chance of doing something in the sport.

What a ridiculous waste of resources that could be going to something good.

 

[steevo]

As an almost Masters age rider, I found that quite funny.

I'd say something about Masters races being safer, but the only time I've seen someone try to take another rider out was in the Masters race. Bunch of egos for sure.

I heard a great first hand account of a fellow who was on the 84 olympic team forcing another 45+ year old racer into the gutter for not pulling through.
awesome.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

As he should have...

 

[flicker]

There should NEVER be prize money for Masters' races.

All their entry fees should go to junior development programs and we should all boycott any company that financially sponsors a Master's team.

Stupid old b*stards missed their chance. Give it up, and help the kids that actually have a chance of doing something in the sport.

What a ridiculous waste of resources that could be going to something good.

I do not exactly understand what you are saying. There are some awesome masters out there. As far as jr. sponsors LeMond your man in Japan should be forking out the big bucks for jr. development. Fact is he was sponsored heavily from age 16 years on. Deservedly. Now it is his turn to return the favor for the "clean jrs. and U-23."

 

[Race Radio]

I heard a great first hand account of a fellow who was on the 84 olympic team forcing another 45+ year old racer into the gutter for not pulling through.
awesome.

Last I saw Steve his belly was almost touching his top tube.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I do not exactly understand what you are saying. There are some awesome masters out there. As far as jr. sponsors LeMond your man in Japan should be forking out the big bucks for jr. development. Fact is he was sponsored heavily from age 16 years on. Deservedly. Now it is his turn to return the favor for the "clean jrs. and U-23."

I am just saying that Masters' prize purses should be paid out to developing riders, regardless of how *ss-kicking those masters may be.

The Masters aren't going anywhere in the sport. They won't end up representing their country at the Olys or the Worlds (apart from the 'Geritol Games' that have popped up recently, including their own WCs). They aren't going to be signing with pro teams and continuing the legacy and history of the sport. They are only racing for themselves and. as the geriatric parasites they are, do nothing but suck resources out of competitive sport.

Every dollar that a Masters' team gets from a sponsor is a dollar that should go to young riders. Why? Because that is the group that will build the sport.

To have a bunch of past-their-prime has-beens duking it out to make themselves feel important is a bit of a sad spectacle. To be honest, I still do it. But any prize money or gifts I've won I give back to the organiser with the caveat that it goes to the top Junior. I really don't need a few euros or a pair of new tires, but I'm pretty sure that some racer kid would.

Rather than getting GL involved, how about this - rather than the yellow army of lancefans, I'd like to see a world-wide network of clubs that provide gear available to motivated kids who want to race. It's really only a rich-kid sport in north america, spread the wealth! H*ll, you could have everything painted yellow if you wanted, even put your dark prince's moniker on it if you'd like.

What do you think? Would the Boss go for it? Pretty good PR with the sh*t hitting the fan and all...

 

[Anonymous]

Last I saw Steve his belly was almost touching his top tube.

He'll still play gutter-ball if you don't pull through. Ain't nothing like getting barked at by Steve'O.

Jamie is still good at that game too. He's freakishly skinny nowadays.

 

[flicker]

I am just saying that Masters' prize purses should be paid out to developing riders, regardless of how *ss-kicking those masters may be.

The Masters aren't going anywhere in the sport. They won't end up representing their country at the Olys or the Worlds (apart from the 'Geritol Games' that have popped up recently, including their own WCs). They aren't going to be signing with pro teams and continuing the legacy and history of the sport. They are only racing for themselves and. as the geriatric parasites they are, do nothing but suck resources out of competitive sport.

Every dollar that a Masters' team gets from a sponsor is a dollar that should go to young riders. Why? Because that is the group that will build the sport.

To have a bunch of past-their-prime has-beens duking it out to make themselves feel important is a bit of a sad spectacle. To be honest, I still do it. But any prize money or gifts I've won I give back to the organiser with the caveat that it goes to the top Junior. I really don't need a few euros or a pair of new tires, but I'm pretty sure that some racer kid would.

Rather than getting GL involved, how about this - rather than the yellow army of lancefans, I'd like to see a world-wide network of clubs that provide gear available to motivated kids who want to race. It's really only a rich-kid sport in north america, spread the wealth! H*ll, you could have everything painted yellow if you wanted, even put your dark prince's moniker on it if you'd like.

What do you think? Would the Boss go for it? Pretty good PR with the sh*t hitting the fan and all...

Yeah I watched this one crusty masters dude dale stetina hammer it in a crit breakaway. very entertaining. I just loved seeing him ride his heart out. I doubt Dale does it for the prizes. LeMond to me has to really put his money where his mouth is as far as promoting the young ins. I met a custom frame builder who has worked with Greg before who is ready to go to work for Greg again! Hey Lance is sponsoring a u-23 team as of now, he got Colorado Stage race going again, he is promoting LIVESTRONG which is a health and fitness network as well as cancer org. Shimano is involved in jr. development I know kids they are sending out to race in Europe. Maybe some others can step aboard?

 

[PotentialPro]

Actually a part of all license fees come back to each "district". Some of this funding helps with the LA Jr series, others fund JR talent camps in various areas. I know there are several of these in the SW.

Also in a way, I know that some races have minimal entry costs for Jr's, less than $10 on some of them, and that is in part because Master's end up paying $30.

There are many areas that are starting up High School racing, Nor Cal is doing well with this, SoCal is coming on board big time. AZ has a few schools trying, but need help. Racing for your High School could be cool.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Think of what a Saturday morning High School criterium series could be like. You could even throw in some goofy categories like 'fixies' or cruisers to get more involvement. Build the sport, baby!

 

[lean mean &green]

The Masters aren't going anywhere in the sport. They won't end up representing their country at the Olys or the Worlds (apart from the 'Geritol Games' that have popped up recently, including their own WCs). They aren't going to be signing with pro teams and continuing the legacy and history of the sport. They are only racing for themselves and. as the geriatric parasites they are, do nothing but suck resources out of competitive sport.

Every dollar that a Masters' team gets from a sponsor is a dollar that should go to young riders. Why? Because that is the group that will build the sport.

To have a bunch of past-their-prime has-beens duking it out to make themselves feel important is a bit of a sad spectacle. To be honest, I still do it. But any prize money or gifts I've won I give back to the organiser with the caveat that it goes to the top Junior. I really don't need a few euros or a pair of new tires, but I'm pretty sure that some racer kid would.

Rather than getting GL involved, how about this - rather than the yellow army of lancefans, I'd like to see a world-wide network of clubs that provide gear available to motivated kids who want to race. It's really only a rich-kid sport in north america, spread the wealth! H*ll, you could have everything painted yellow if you wanted, even put your dark prince's moniker on it if you'd like.

i'm not of masters age yet but i think everyone has a right to participate and has their own reasons for doing so. some of those reasons are quite admirable. there's really nothing wrong with middle age and older adults cultivating their fitness and testing themselves against one another. sometimes the payoff is little more than feeling a sense of accomplishment, actually i'd say that most of the time that's really all it is. characterizing them as "geriatric parasites" is WAAAAYYY off base. to go further, it's unfair to tax them for wanting to do so because you've decided for everyone that junior racing and youth development for the sake of medal counts are of greatest importance. not to mention that cycling success at the world class level you mention pretty much means your pushing those young people into a dope-fueled rat race. you're sounding just as over-competitive as the personalities you're trying to avoid. here's how it should look...

i'd like to see more people on bikes, period. i'd gladly trade every last one of my countries' olympic/WC medals in the next twenty years if we could double the number of people (of all ages) who regularly ride bikes in my (or anyone else's) country. he11, forget about double, how about a 30% increase? yep, i'd take that.

i agree that bike racing should be more accessible to young people in financial need but it's also important for young people to have examples of adults participating in healthy, clean, fair, competition and to demonstrate an appropriate sportsmanlike attitude toward sporting successes, failures, and other athletes. it's a value judgment and a balancing act but i think EVERYONE has a right to compete and NO ONE has a right to make you to fund someone else's development. at the end of the day many people in a position to do so can, should, and will help. popularizing the sport also means there's plenty more yuppies casting off lightly used race wheels to poor young prodigies too.

lastly, i certainly don't think of anyone at any level of participation as a "parasite". they, like you, are all potential allies.

 

[Oldman]

I am just saying that Masters' prize purses should be paid out to developing riders, regardless of how *ss-kicking those masters may be.

The Masters aren't going anywhere in the sport. They won't end up representing their country at the Olys or the Worlds (apart from the 'Geritol Games' that have popped up recently, including their own WCs). They aren't going to be signing with pro teams and continuing the legacy and history of the sport. They are only racing for themselves and. as the geriatric parasites they are, do nothing but suck resources out of competitive sport.Every dollar that a Masters' team gets from a sponsor is a dollar that should go to young riders. Why? Because that is the group that will build the sport.

To have a bunch of past-their-prime has-beens duking it out to make themselves feel important is a bit of a sad spectacle. To be honest, I still do it. But any prize money or gifts I've won I give back to the organiser with the caveat that it goes to the top Junior. I really don't need a few euros or a pair of new tires, but I'm pretty sure that some racer kid would.

Rather than getting GL involved, how about this - rather than the yellow army of lancefans, I'd like to see a world-wide network of clubs that provide gear available to motivated kids who want to race. It's really only a rich-kid sport in north america, spread the wealth! H*ll, you could have everything painted yellow if you wanted, even put your dark prince's moniker on it if you'd like.

What do you think? Would the Boss go for it? Pretty good PR with the sh*t hitting the fan and all...

You make a couple of good points and then blow it. I don't know where you race but up here the Masters pretty much finance and organize everything, many for their kids and other youngsters. That goes for track racing, cyclo cross, bmx, mbx and road events. Sounds like you race with small minds...