Pinarello Dogma replicas?

[joe_papp]

Anyone seen these Pinarello Dogma replicas selling on Ebay for under $1000? Are they actually made in the same factory as the "genuine" Dogma, with the same grade of carbon, as claimed by the seller(s) [one of whom actually lists the wrong spec carbon I think]? Of course if it seems too good to be true it is, and I realize these aren't genuine Dogma's from Italy, but are they identical in construction and just spirited out the back door of the factory?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PINARELLO-D...sure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item336b1909b4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-Pinare...50881655945?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item3a69b64489

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-PINARE...00645849401?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item2eb76cb139

 

[ElChingon]

I can't tell the difference Joe

Opps! Sales rep might not like this one (insert smilie with tongue out here)

 

[Benotti69]

some reading of some of the guys who have bought chinese carbon frames direct


http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bi...-direct-version-5-0-a-241785-post3231865.html

 

[joe_papp]

I can't tell the difference Joe

Opps! Sales rep might not like this one (insert smilie with tongue out here)

OUCH! DOH!

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Anyone seen these Pinarello Dogma replicas selling on Ebay for under $1000? Are they actually made in the same factory as the "genuine" Dogma, with the same grade of carbon, as claimed by the seller(s) [one of whom actually lists the wrong spec carbon I think]? Of course if it seems too good to be true it is, and I realize these aren't genuine Dogma's from Italy, but are they identical in construction and just spirited out the back door of the factory?

The real Pinarellos are not made in Italy even though they say so on the frame. They are only painted in Italy.

The Chinarellos are not made in the same factory with the same molds. They use English BBs instead of Italian ones. The fake Princes and Dogmas use the same mold. One of them, the Dogma I think, uses a seatpost with a round cross section instead of what is used for the real Pinarello, so that is a dead giveaway to someone who knows their Pinarellos that it is a fake. The paint jobs are not perfect replicas. Depending on which buyer you buy from, the paint can be quite close to the real McCoy to being quite a ways off.

 

[joe_papp]

Genuine-genuine

The real Pinarellos are not made in Italy even though they say so on the frame. They are only painted in Italy.

The Chinarellos are not made in the same factory with the same molds. They use English BBs instead of Italian ones. The fake Princes and Dogmas use the same mold. One of them, the Dogma I think, uses a seatpost with a round cross section instead of what is used for the real Pinarello, so that is a dead giveaway to someone who knows their Pinarellos that it is a fake. The paint jobs are not perfect replicas. Depending on which buyer you buy from, the paint can be quite close to the real McCoy to being quite a ways off.

Cool, thanks for the info.

I msg'd one of the sellers on Ebay asking if it was a genuine replica or what and you should've seen the contortions done to answer that one.

I'll stick w/ my genuine genuine, painted-in-Italy Prince!

 

[LugHugger]

The real Pinarellos are not made in Italy even though they say so on the frame. They are only painted in Italy.

The Chinarellos are not made in the same factory with the same molds. They use English BBs instead of Italian ones. The fake Princes and Dogmas use the same mold. One of them, the Dogma I think, uses a seatpost with a round cross section instead of what is used for the real Pinarello, so that is a dead giveaway to someone who knows their Pinarellos that it is a fake. The paint jobs are not perfect replicas. Depending on which buyer you buy from, the paint can be quite close to the real McCoy to being quite a ways off.

The real Pinarello Dogma's are very clearly marked with a 'Made in Taiwan' sticker on the B/B.
Once again, you post misinformation about a brand you know nothing about.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

The real Pinarello Dogma's are very clearly marked with a 'Made in Taiwan' sticker on the B/B.
Once again, you post misinformation about a brand you know nothing about.

You mean like this Prince:

And this Dogma.

Italian laws for what counts as made in Italy rely where the most value is added. By painting a chinese frame in Italy, Pinarellos are officially made in Italy.

Lots of bike shops remove the Taiwan sticker on the bottom of the frame.

 

[LugHugger]

You mean like this Prince:

And this Dogma.

Italian laws for what counts as made in Italy rely where the most value is added. By painting a chinese frame in Italy, Pinarellos are officially made in Italy.

Lots of bike shops remove the Taiwan sticker on the bottom of the frame.

Nope. Try again. Pinarello Dogma frames are officially Made in Taiwan.

For EU VAT purposes, they are re-labelled as Made in Italy. At the time of import, the frame does not have the Made in Italy sticker on it.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Nope. Try again. Pinarello Dogma frames are officially Made in Taiwan.

For EU VAT purposes, they are re-labelled as Made in Italy. At the time of import, the frame does not have the Made in Italy sticker on it.

Yeah, the pics are fake. Try slinging some more B.S.

http://cyclingmagazine.ca/2010/03/sections/gear-reviews/bikesframes/pinarello-dogma-601-di2/

"The other complaint isn't so much about the Dogma itself as it is about the "Made in Italy" sticker on the downtube. The Italian brand is able to use that sticker because the bikes are painted and assembled in its Treviso, Italy factory, but the frames themselves are made in a factory in Taiwan. That's not to say there's a problem with the fact they're produced there, because Asia is pumping out some of the best carbon products in the world right now, but if a sticker says "Made in Italy", most consumers assume the entire bike is manufactured in Italy."

 

[joe_papp]

hey

No offense but let's please not argue about the qualities of the poster, but rather, the veracity of the content. I just checked my Prince, which was imported into the USA and then sold retail by Competitive Cyclist as a demo bike to me, and it's got a very large, white "Made In Italy" sticker on the BB - even though initial frame production took place in the Orient.

 

[ElChingon]

More random data or info/miss-info? Anyway as I looked around found this interesting post:

(STARNUT 4th or so down)

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=90693&hilit=chinarello&start=15

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

More random data or info/miss-info? Anyway as I looked around found this interesting post:

(STARNUT 4th or so down)

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=90693&hilit=chinarello&start=15

Aside from being scary that is an interesting thread. On a later page elviento has a post where he describes how the knock-off frame makers operate.

That does bring up an obvious point. How much care for the end customer will be taken by what are essentially professional criminals?

 

[ElChingon]

Aside from being scary that is an interesting thread. On a later page elviento has a post where he describes how the knock-off frame makers operate.

That does bring up an obvious point. How much care for the end customer will be taken by what are essentially professional criminals?

I've been looking into these frames for sometime and there is no real distinction between the good or the bad or just the random maker of these off brand frames. I have even talked to the guys at the bike show (Chinese groups selling manufacturing of custom frames) and they don't really distinguish themselves in any way to make a particular name associated with quality or reliable products. They are totally into selling numbers of frames, everything else seems secondary or just forgotten.

I like most would like a cheap cool frame but seeing these issues/cases makes me take a step back before clicking the buy button. Then there's the guys I know who ride them and they've been fine, so far. Decisions, decisions...

 

[ggusta]

More random data or info/miss-info? Anyway as I looked around found this interesting post:

(STARNUT 4th or so down)

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=90693&hilit=chinarello&start=15

I like this forum a lot, but that thread is way more interesting about the same topic than this one! I mean no offense.

 

[LugHugger]

Yeah, the pics are fake. Try slinging some more B.S.

http://cyclingmagazine.ca/2010/03/sections/gear-reviews/bikesframes/pinarello-dogma-601-di2/

To clarify, the raw finish frames are imported into Italy under IPR at a reduced duty rate. The frames are painted, stickers applied re-nominating the country of origin. Then may be re-exported and sold, as Joe says, outside the EU without a Made in Taiwan sticker. Dogma frames re-sold in the EU must have the Made in Taiwan sticker applied, usually on the bottom bracket. Pinarello have to pay duty on Taiwanese frames sold in the EU. The MiT sticker can easily be removed by hand. No BS.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Troll babble

Nice attempt to dodge.

 

[joe_papp]

Cool! But...?

I like this forum a lot, but that thread is way more interesting about the same topic than this one! I mean no offense.

Yaaa but what's great about this forum (for all the drama of The Clinic sub-forum) is that in a matter of minutes after starting this thread on a topic I was curious about but wanted to hear from other posters here regarding, the replies start coming in and a discussion is up-and-running, including links to roundtables on the same topic elsewhere. Cool.

To clarify, the raw finish frames are imported into Italy under IPR at a reduced duty rate. ...The MiT sticker can easily be removed by hand. No BS.

Nice attempt to dodge.

??? Did one of you shtup the other's sister/mother or something?

 

[LugHugger]

Yaaa but what's great about this forum (for all the drama of The Clinic sub-forum) is that in a matter of minutes after starting this thread on a topic I was curious about but wanted to hear from other posters here regarding, the replies start coming in and a discussion is up-and-running, including links to roundtables on the same topic elsewhere. Cool.




??? Did one of you shtup the other's sister/mother or something?

Something like that!

 

[ElChingon]

I think one major point some people are missing is the details.

Some manufactures do make their carbon fames in China, but under their due diligence and specs, then with their in house random tests and fussing over the little details to make the frame perfect. Then there's the guys who get to do their own thing after hours with who knows what kind of engineering or cycling background, then without detailed knowledge of the recipe of the major manufacture who they might of been able to oversee as they might work in the same factory, but they have a hint of what's needed, and are not even cyclist or artisans that are creating the masterpieces.

Everyone can bake a cake, but as you all know its the recipe and the small details that make the difference between an easy bake oven cake and one bought from the local fancy pants bakery, they both use flower, eggs and who knows what other ingredients (I'm not a baker) yet the results are way different.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

It seems to me that the best bet for buying cheap carbon is to buy from one of the budget middlemen like Pedal Force, Bikes Direct, Planet X, etc. Those companies should be doing QC.

It is clear from reading threads on different forums about buying cheap carbon direct that there is little to no QC being done. Jerry rigging is often required to fit a headset and even something as simple as drilling a correctly placed hole for the front derailleur cable is frequently done wrong. Perhaps for an overbuilt carbon frame it does not matter so much. Failure is unlikely to cause a crash. But forks are an entirely different matter. Forks with no QC scare me.

 

[gregod]

i don't think this one complies with UCI regulations.

 

[Elagabalus]

I think one major point some people are missing is the details.

Some manufactures do make their carbon fames in China, but under their due diligence and specs, then with their in house random tests and fussing over the little details to make the frame perfect. Then there's the guys who get to do their own thing after hours with who knows what kind of engineering or cycling background, then without detailed knowledge of the recipe of the major manufacture who they might of been able to oversee as they might work in the same factory, but they have a hint of what's needed, and are not even cyclist or artisans that are creating the masterpieces.

Everyone can bake a cake, but as you all know its the recipe and the small details that make the difference between an easy bake oven cake and one bought from the local fancy pants bakery, they both use flower, eggs and who knows what other ingredients (I'm not a baker) yet the results are way different.

Your analogy doesn't hold. The people at the factory have already proved that they have the necessary skill set by being awarded the contract (to a major manufacturer) in the first place. They know what they're doing, and they suddenly don't unlearn that skill when they do other frames with other molds.

Not sure if there are any people "who get to do their own thing" after hours in a Chinese factory. The molds themselves are probably not even made in-house but are probably milled out at some other facility. All the "fussing" about details are done at this stage not after everything has been signed-off and the production run started.

I didn't read the whole thing over on weight weenies but was the cause of the steerer tube separation something more severe than "I was just riding along"?

What we need is for someone (not related to the bike industry) to get a hold of some of these frames and give them a thorough rode test. Actually, Joe, would be a good candidate, because he could thrash the frame to an inch of its life and he's currently persona non grata wrt the bike industry.

 

[ElChingon]

What we need is for someone (not related to the bike industry) to get a hold of some of these frames and give them a thorough rode test. Actually, Joe, would be a good candidate, because he could thrash the frame to an inch of its life and he's currently persona non grata wrt the bike industry.

I nominate you, you believe in it so prove your word, go test them out. Or if you don't you do not believe they are what you say. Pretty simple really.

I think Joe should wait for your test results.

 

[Elagabalus]

I nominate you, you believe in it so prove your word, go test them out. Or if you don't you do not believe they are what you say. Pretty simple really.

I think Joe should wait for your test results.

Pointing out that frame manufacturing is a little bit more complicated than making a cake does not make me a complete Chinese Frame believer.

... but if you want to send me a frame to test I will not turn down the opportunity ...