Plasticisers - Food contamination possible.

[GreasyMonkey]

Firstly, a disclaimer, this has nothing to do with Dertie, Clentador or other such characters.....

There has been a scandal brewing in Taiwan, & now China, over the use of DEHP as an additive in foods - it is illegal in both countries, but that has not stopped it happening.

http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2011-06/13/content_12685812.htm

DEHP is only the latest in a string of illegal food additives, there will be others.

Also recently one of the major (most trusted) brands of sausages & pork products has been caught adding Clenbuterol into pig's food at their fattening facilities.

GM.

 

[Ferminal]

Perfect, I can just see it now "I ordered a special flavour of sports drinks from an obscure producer in the PRC".

Sounds like it could be a concern for athletes (and people in general) living there though. The story doesn't go into any detail though, who knows what the actual concentrations in the products are and what they actually translate into urine if consumed.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Money quote, "The guarantee of food safety lies in production rather than supervision"

In the EU this is simply not the case. Therefore most riders will not be unwittingly exposed to WADA-flagging plasticizer and/or clenbuterol levels. Also true for the U.S. to some degree. To be clear, that doesn't mean there are no cases. It just means the regulatory environment strongly discourages it.

I consider package leeching a bigger source of plasticizers for humans in the US and less so in the EU.

As a practical consideration, when you rip open your favorite gel, bar, shot, packaging, there's major plasticizer exposure if you chomp down on the packaging. Also true for drinks sold in plastic bottles. The best packaging in most cases is a foil laminate where the foil is what is exposed to the food. That's expensive though. Is exposure to plasticizers from food packaging going to fire off a warning at a WADA lab? No. Not like a blood bag. The health risks of chronic low-level plasticizer ingestion over a lifetime are still in contention.

Ferminal, ingredients is a big, global business. In the U.S. food can be labeled 'made in the u.s.a.' with the ingredients coming from all over the globe. I don't know if the E.U. standard is comparable. So, DHEP tainted ingredients can end up in trusted brands food. Not likely though.

 

[Race Radio]

As I understand it there are many variations of Plasticziers. What is found in blood bags is different that what is found in food packaging.

 

[Ferminal]

Ferminal, ingredients is a big, global business. In the U.S. food can be labeled 'made in the u.s.a.' with the ingredients coming from all over the globe. I don't know if the E.U. standard is comparable. So, DHEP tainted ingredients can end up in trusted brands food. Not likely though.

It's highly unlikely isn't it? My memory could be failing me, but I don't remember too many cases outside of Asia during big contamination issues previously in the Far East. Although I do recall batches of some imported products being pulled every now and then due to fears of contamination.

 

[theswordsman]

In America a few years ago we went through a series of problems with Chinese imports. Melanine in various food products was a biggy, along with lead paint on toys and things. If you actually read stories about food scandals in China over time, it's frightening. I remember one guy was caught picking up discarded cardboard off the ground and turning it into I believe dumplings at a food stand. In March was when their biggest meat supplier admitted a clenbuterol scandal. They shut down for months, and their stock was frozen for a while. But there's been food spray painted and passed off as other types of food. Some farmers are switching from clenbuterol to salbutamol and something else. It's a real nightmare. And yet they've stopped some shipments of basically less appealing animal parts from the U.S. because they said there was clenbuterol in that. Seriously, though, I feel sorry for pretty much everyone there who just hopes the food is what they're told it is.

 

[NedBraden]

Perfect, I can just see it now "I ordered a special flavour of sports drinks from an obscure producer in the PRC".

Sounds like it could be a concern for athletes (and people in general) living there though. The story doesn't go into any detail though, who knows what the actual concentrations in the products are and what they actually translate into urine if consumed.

I find it interesting that you completely contradict your own attitude/comments in the Armstrong thread. Just sayin'!

 

[Ferminal]

I find it interesting that you completely contradict your own attitude/comments in the Armstrong thread. Just sayin'!

If you have something to contribute to the topic please do so, otherwise this is a conversation we can have in PMs.

 

[NedBraden]

If you have something to contribute to the topic please do so, otherwise this is a conversation we can have in PMs.

Ok, I will pm you since it's clear I hit a nerve here.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

As I understand it there are many variations of Plasticziers. What is found in blood bags is different that what is found in food packaging.

My understanding is that DEHP is the plasticizer used in blood bags, and yes, there are many other types of plasticizers.

The scary thing about this one is that is NOT the packaging, DEHP is being added as an emulsifier TO THE FOOD IT'SELF..... rather than using a more expensive product, such as palm oil.

 

[NedBraden]

If you have something to contribute to the topic please do so, otherwise this is a conversation we can have in PMs.

I think you are dead on, we should only use the actual facts we have in this case and others, instead of making up ones to suit agendas. In this case we don't know the concentrations.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

<snip> I feel sorry for pretty much everyone there who just hopes the food is what they're told it is.

I lived in China from 2007 - 2010, and it is scary to see/hear what is going on with food there.....

Milk powder laced with melamine to boost the protein content (get paid more), recyling food and recovering the oil contents, for "recycling" as fresh cooking oil (make more profit), clenbuterol in pig-meal to boost clean-weight at slaughter (get paid more for lean meat Vs fat).

The whole thing is driven by greed, lack of supervision & need for higher monetary returns (no social security or public health insurance). Inflation is rampant, the average person can barely make ends meet now, so it will only get worse, unfortunately.

When we visited last month with our 7-month old daughter, we made sure that we took sufficient infant milk formula from Australia, enough nappies/diapers, etc - my wife (who is born & bred in PRC) would not let our daughter eat anything that was not grown on her parents' farm.

As for being complacent in the USA or EU (where we now live), it is only through stringent inspections and testing that there is some confidence, but that can be so easily compromised by a couple of greedy persons, and a slack inspector.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It's highly unlikely isn't it?

Yes. Only because the ingredients business is dominated by a few suppliers in the West who don't have to resort to plasticizers because they have price and volume power. The ability to exceed the regulatory hurdles to deliver untainted product is a result of a combination of their size, economic stability, and regulatory presence. The same cannot be said in less regulated countries. The money quote above is far more prescient than you may understand.

Explaining away Pharmador's clen positive to EU sourced food is equivalent to Hamilton's unborn twin explanation. When one adds the much discussed plasticizer scores with the rider living in the EU, the combined explanation is simply unbelievable.

 

[DirtyWorks]

My understanding is that DEHP is the plasticizer used in blood bags, and yes, there are many other types of plasticizers.

The scary thing about this one is that is NOT the packaging, DEHP is being added as an emulsifier TO THE FOOD IT'SELF..... rather than using a more expensive product, such as palm oil.

I'm not sure why the alarm threshold is at pouring it into the food. Most are getting chronic low-level exposure now. All kinds of water bottles, anything used to prepare/handle food is plastic in the typical Westerner's kitchen. Food packaging is increasingly loaded with plasticizers.

Yes, pouring it directly into manufactured food is worse, but only by some degrees. Maybe it's because you, like very many, aren't aware of how their food and food equipment is manufactured?

 

[Barrus]

My understanding is that DEHP is the plasticizer used in blood bags, and yes, there are many other types of plasticizers.

The scary thing about this one is that is NOT the packaging, DEHP is being added as an emulsifier TO THE FOOD IT'SELF..... rather than using a more expensive product, such as palm oil.

In order to have a high enough count of DEHP in the blood which would be similar to the increase in DEHP that occurs with a blood transfusion, one would need to eat a ridiculous amount of DEHP, or at least that was the idea that I got when I read some of the scientific work concerning the test, however I could be wrong, since it has been quite some time since I read those articles

 

[GreasyMonkey]

Yes, pouring it directly into manufactured food is worse, but only by some degrees. Maybe it's because you, like very many, aren't aware of how their food and food equipment is manufactured?

No, I am aware of how food is made/prepared, and the contamination of food from storage in plastics, etc.

A few years ago I read (but now cannot find) a review of studies on leeching contamination Vs direct addition of the same material to foods, but from my (very jaded) memory, it was not a matter of degrees, it was of the order of magnitudes greater - maybe all the plasticizer is affecting my memory

The reason for the UPPER CASE was to emphasize that it is not packaging in this instance, which appeared to be a point of error in RR's post - not picking on RR, his posts are usually spot-on.

 

[DirtyWorks]

In order to have a high enough count of DEHP in the blood which would be similar to the increase in DEHP that occurs with a blood transfusion, one would need to eat a ridiculous amount of DEHP, or at least that was the idea that I got when I read some of the scientific work concerning the test, however I could be wrong, since it has been quite some time since I read those articles

That fits my recollection too.

Is there a chronically ill population where the health consequences of the plasticizers repeatedly introduced over a long period of time via a transfusion has been researched?

 

[D-Queued]

In order to have a high enough count of DEHP in the blood which would be similar to the increase in DEHP that occurs with a blood transfusion, one would need to eat a ridiculous amount of DEHP, or at least that was the idea that I got when I read some of the scientific work concerning the test, however I could be wrong, since it has been quite some time since I read those articles

Sounds about right.

One thing we can be sure of:

If plasticizer tests are introduced in the CAS proceedings, Aldirto will produce pictures of himself dumpster diving for snacks on discarded DEHP blood transfusion bags.

Should make for good theatre.

Dave.

 

[JPM London]

... DEHP is being added as an emulsifier TO THE FOOD IT'SELF..... rather than using a more expensive product, such as palm oil.

Well, the palm oil industry is making the orangutans in Borneo extinct, so at least it's good for someone...

 

[brianf7]

As I understand it there are many variations of Plasticziers. What is found in blood bags is different that what is found in food packaging.

You can eat a dozen plastic food bags and wont make any difference except you will feel ill.
To get plasticisers into the blood it has to be transfused introvenousley it wont get through the stomach acid cleavage.

 

[Merckx index]

this has nothing to do with Dertie, Clentador or other such characters.....

Not yet.

It has been reported that this food contamination with DEHP has been going on for several decades in Taiwan. A study in 2007 of 76 pregnant Taiwanese reported mean urine levels of MEHP, a DEHP metabolite, of 20 ng/ml, with a maximum of 381 and 95th percentile of 273. That was compared with a study of American women in which the mean was 3 ng/ml and 95th percentile was 21 ng/ml. The latter was taken from a larger study of 2700 Americans in which the mean value was 8 ng/ml, and the maximum value was 718.

So it appears that Taiwanese may have significantly greater ongoing levels of DEHP than Americans. How do these levels compare with those reported for Bert? The Taiwan study measured only of the three common metabolites of DEHP, MEHP, which is generally found in levels 5-10 times lower than for the other two metabolites. For example, in that study of 2700 individuals, the means and range of the three metabolites were as follows (ng/ml):

MEHP 8 (0.6 – 718)
MEHHP 65 (0.2 -3141)
MEOHP 42 (0.4 - 1953)

Thus the MEHHP and MEOHP levels for the Taiwanese women, if they had been measured, probably would have had means of 100 or more ng/ml, and maxima of as much as 1000 ng/ml. AFAIK, we don’t know which metabolites the values reported for Bert corresponded to, but most likely they were MEHHP and MEOHP. The reported values of about 480 and 200 ng/ml, therefore, could be consistent with the values of many ordinary Taiwanese. Again, though, in studies in the West, values like these, though not unheard of, are quite rare.

You can eat a dozen plastic food bags and wont make any difference except you will feel ill. To get plasticisers into the blood it has to be transfused intravenousley it wont get through the stomach acid cleavage.

A very small amount of DEHP will be released from the plastic. They have done studies where plastic wrapped food was heated for a while, and DEHP was found in the food. These compounds in food are certainly absorbed into the circulation. There are well known endocrinological effects, e.g., ranging from alteration in certain hormone levels to babies born with small penises and reduced anal-genital distance.

 

[Oldman]

As I understand it there are many variations of Plasticziers. What is found in blood bags is different that what is found in food packaging.

If they found melamine in powdered infant formula shipped from PRC you would presume almost anything except the quality of plastic used in a blood transfusion bag...unless it also came from China.

 

[delbified]

All kinds of water bottles, anything used to prepare/handle food is plastic in the typical Westerner's kitchen. Food packaging is increasingly loaded with plasticizers.

it's important to note that plasticiser does not necessarily = DEHP. the risks of DEHP in food packaging have long been recognised and its use limited by at least some western govts.

Since DEHP is not chemically bonded to the vinyl product, small quantities may leach out. The Federal Drug Administration (FDA) currently limits the proportion of plasticizers like DEHP in food containers to 30 percent, but there are no such requirements for their use in medical supplies.

DEHP is particularly used in blood bags. Dertie should be required to explain how he tested for such high quantities of DEHP. as others have noted, he has been found with two highly suspicious substances in his blood. how many unlikely stories about their provenance are we expected to believe?

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Dertie should be required to explain how he tested for such high quantities of DEHP. as others have noted, he has been found with two highly suspicious substances in his blood. how many unlikely stories about their provenance are we expected to believe?

How would Contador know how DEHP got into his blood? For all we know got the munchies one night and microwaved leftover paella in a plastic container made in Taiwan. If your blood tested high for DEHP, would you be able to explain it? The values in the regular population are so wildy spread out that this is worthless. You can bet dollars to donuts that there will not be a rigorous false positive study done.

 

[delbified]

How would Contador know how DEHP got into his blood?

while DEHP may not have the same strict liability as other, banned substances (e.g. clenbuterol), it becomes a farce when his defence just says "prove it was blood doping". this is not criminal justice with 'innocent until proven guilty' - there is an onus on pro riders to take steps in demonstrating that they take anti-doping seriously. he should be required to defend the detected presence in his blood.

For all we know got the munchies one night and microwaved leftover paella in plastic container made in Taiwan.

from what i understand, that wouldn't reasonably explain the elevated levels found in his blood.