Pro Riders Riding For Free

[suipedali]

Was just reading the article about David Kemp signing for Verandas Willems, and he made the following comment..."I’m really excited and I’d take any opportunity that they’d offer.”... I'm not saying that he is, but I was wondering how many riders were still riding for a "Jersey and Bike". When I was involved with Pro Teams in the late 80's to early 90's this was a fairly common thing, even though there was a "minimum wage" it was not uncommon with some creative accounting for this money to find it's way back to the team.

 

[Michele]

Still very common especially among Continental teams.

 

[suipedali]

I didn't think the situation would have changed too much.

 

[spetsa]

Still very common especially among Continental teams.

Things have changed some, but not too much. Not only is it common for US domestic teams to have guys racing for jerseys and a bike, but it is very common to have guys on teams that brought some form of sponsorship with them. Anyone that has raced pro in the US knows many guys that bought their way onto a team. The going rate for one small team back around 2005/ 2006 was as low as $3000 US, and you had to make your own way to most of the races. Even the largest teams had spots available to buy as long as you were strong enough to ride the front.

 

[erik saunders]

been out of the loop...

however, an important note, especially for the USA scene, is that the UCI does not consider continental teams to be "pro".. they are sort of an international super amateur team... UCI doesnt even really deal with them at all.. its up to the national federations... as such they have no great rights or privileges with the UCI...

the idea is that its a tier of teams that can provide opportunities and mentorship for young riders to step up and shine, then get to bigger teams... so its sort of understood in this that some guys will not be getting paid... in fact its well known that the salary is low, or non-existent, and that some teams may require a rider to pay his own expenses... of course, at the continental level you arent really "pro" as far as the UCI is concerned...

 

[Michele]

Things have changed some, but not too much. Not only is it common for US domestic teams to have guys racing for jerseys and a bike, but it is very common to have guys on teams that brought some form of sponsorship with them. Anyone that has raced pro in the US knows many guys that bought their way onto a team. The going rate for one small team back around 2005/ 2006 was as low as $3000 US, and you had to make your own way to most of the races. Even the largest teams had spots available to buy as long as you were strong enough to ride the front.

Some years ago, a very strong local amateur racer (he won some important international events) was asked 30.000euro for a ride at Miche.

 

[Dimtick]

this is a little off topic....

with all these riders, being paid next to nothing, it makes me wonder more and more why Rasmussen hasn't been able to get a spot with a ProTour team when he has a personal sponsor that will pay his salary? I had been thinking that it was because all the "baggage" that comes with him but let's face it. This is cycling. Everybody has baggage.
Now I'm wondering if he made all these unrealistic demands on his contract. like "I'll be unpaid this year but if I have a good year, next season I'll get double salary....". I'm wondering if his demands just couldn't be met with the short term volitle nature of ProTour sponsorship deals. Maybe that's why he didn't even talk to Radio Shack, because he knew that he couldn't get a long term contract.

thinking out loud.....

 

[BroDeal]

this is a little off topic....

with all these riders, being paid next to nothing, it makes me wonder more and more why Rasmussen hasn't been able to get a spot with a ProTour team when he has a personal sponsor that will pay his salary? I had been thinking that it was because all the "baggage" that comes with him but let's face it. This is cycling. Everybody has baggage.
Now I'm wondering if he made all these unrealistic demands on his contract. like "I'll be unpaid this year but if I have a good year, next season I'll get double salary....". I'm wondering if his demands just couldn't be met with the short term volitle nature of ProTour sponsorship deals. Maybe that's why he didn't even talk to Radio Shack, because he knew that he couldn't get a long term contract.

thinking out loud.....

The teams get a call from McQuaid, who tells the team that it will have a hard time getting race invites if it hires Rasmussen. Any thought of the team getting a higher level license will also be in jeopardy. Without the blacklist, Ras would have no problem getting on a Pro Conti team; none of those will turn down extra money.

 

[Dimtick]

The teams get a call from McQuaid, who tells the team that it will have a hard time getting race invites if it hires Rasmussen. Any thought of the team getting a higher level license will also be in jeopardy. Without the blacklist, Ras would have no problem getting on a Pro Conti team; none of those will turn down extra money.

did McQuaid really do that?
I seem to remember an article where he was asked directly whether the UCI had any problem with Rasmussen riding with a ProTour team and he said "Rasmussen has served his suspension and is free to ride". This was when the rumurs where flying around that he was going to ride with Riis.

I'm getting off topic.....this should really go in the Chicken discussions.
no need to respond.

 

[humboldtcomeback]

this is exactly why there is so much doping. the only way to make a salary is to win lots of NRC races, and the only way to do that is to dope (at least when i was doing them), the rumors where that, the guys who were winning, were totally dirty. whole teams going to california spring stage races without their team director, but with a doctor!!!???!!!

if there was a minimum wage, of even as low as 1,000 bucks a month for former 'div 3'/continental teams there would be less guys pressured to dope just to continue. if you watch the joe papp interview that is linked up on erik saunders blog he talks about having to dope just to keep racing. because unless you get onto the podium, you won't be able to afford the gas to get back home and pay rent... unless daddy is paying, which is why the sport is full of what the old school guys call, 'spoilt brats'. you have to be daddy's champ to make it through 1/2/pro racing long enough to get into the dope long enough to get a contract.

if you go clean, you will quit and go back to college like every former div 3 pro that i know that didn't come from a wealthy family. this is why there are no american classics racers that win, because the guys that could win are given zero support because america is all about aero bars and only understand TdF final podium in GC results.

the most disgusting part is that guys are contractually obligated to 'give there bike back' and 'pay for their own health insurance' - so the only thing you get to keep are the rotten jerseys. all the smart riders keep their bikes and flick the team.

not only can a team be influenced by a rider that comes with money, but also a sponsor with money can influence a team into taking their guys, so you get selections for races that are not actually the strongest team, but the team who has the guys the sponsor wants to see in the race...

cheers.

 

[joe_papp]

the most disgusting part is that guys are contractually obligated to 'give there bike back' and 'pay for their own health insurance' - so the only thing you get to keep are the rotten jerseys. all the smart riders keep their bikes and flick the team...

+1

Well said.

 

[Tuarts]

Not that I know too much about it but I think in Aus you're not allowed on some teams without bringing some sponsors in. Which is sort of the same thing.

 

[lean mean &green]

this is exactly why there is so much doping. the only way to make a salary is to win lots of NRC races, and the only way to do that is to dope (at least when i was doing them), the rumors where that, the guys who were winning, were totally dirty. whole teams going to california spring stage races without their team director, but with a doctor!!!???!!!

if there was a minimum wage, of even as low as 1,000 bucks a month for former 'div 3'/continental teams there would be less guys pressured to dope just to continue. if you watch the joe papp interview that is linked up on erik saunders blog he talks about having to dope just to keep racing. because unless you get onto the podium, you won't be able to afford the gas to get back home and pay rent... unless daddy is paying, which is why the sport is full of what the old school guys call, 'spoilt brats'. you have to be daddy's champ to make it through 1/2/pro racing long enough to get into the dope long enough to get a contract.

if you go clean, you will quit and go back to college like every former div 3 pro that i know that didn't come from a wealthy family. this is why there are no american classics racers that win, because the guys that could win are given zero support because america is all about aero bars and only understand TdF final podium in GC results.

the most disgusting part is that guys are contractually obligated to 'give there bike back' and 'pay for their own health insurance' - so the only thing you get to keep are the rotten jerseys. all the smart riders keep their bikes and flick the team.

not only can a team be influenced by a rider that comes with money, but also a sponsor with money can influence a team into taking their guys, so you get selections for races that are not actually the strongest team, but the team who has the guys the sponsor wants to see in the race...

cheers.

that's pretty close to the way it works in the US

 

[craig1985]

Paco Manceobo was riding for €900 euro a month in Portugal, now I know SFA about Portuguese employment law, but that would surely have to be close to minimum wage, right? I think if I was in the case of having to ride for nothing, or very little money, I think it's time to find a new job. Gianni Savio said earlier this year that he was approached by two riders who wanted to ride for a jersey and a bike, and he told them to get lost. At least that is his version of events.

 

[Tuarts]

this is exactly why there is so much doping. the only way to make a salary is to win lots of NRC races, and the only way to do that is to dope (at least when i was doing them), the rumors where that, the guys who were winning, were totally dirty. whole teams going to california spring stage races without their team director, but with a doctor!!!???!!!

if there was a minimum wage, of even as low as 1,000 bucks a month for former 'div 3'/continental teams there would be less guys pressured to dope just to continue. if you watch the joe papp interview that is linked up on erik saunders blog he talks about having to dope just to keep racing. because unless you get onto the podium, you won't be able to afford the gas to get back home and pay rent... unless daddy is paying, which is why the sport is full of what the old school guys call, 'spoilt brats'. you have to be daddy's champ to make it through 1/2/pro racing long enough to get into the dope long enough to get a contract.

if you go clean, you will quit and go back to college like every former div 3 pro that i know that didn't come from a wealthy family. this is why there are no american classics racers that win, because the guys that could win are given zero support because america is all about aero bars and only understand TdF final podium in GC results.

the most disgusting part is that guys are contractually obligated to 'give there bike back' and 'pay for their own health insurance' - so the only thing you get to keep are the rotten jerseys. all the smart riders keep their bikes and flick the team.

not only can a team be influenced by a rider that comes with money, but also a sponsor with money can influence a team into taking their guys, so you get selections for races that are not actually the strongest team, but the team who has the guys the sponsor wants to see in the race...

cheers.

Wow, I really think this is the crux of it all. These riders sacrifice so much to be top of their sport, and the compensation for that is miserly. Alleviate the pressure and stress of supporting yourself and encouraging riders that being a domestique is ok and I reckon the amount of doping at grass roots (in a pro sense) will decrease and then have a flow on effect.

Of course this could all be done by the UCI implementing proper min wage rules of Conti teams and stricter sponsorship from the teams. Mind you it'd probably involve them throwing money into this lower anarchistic tier of the sport, and since when has hand turned more giveth than taketh?

 

[humboldtcomeback]

yeah its bad.

i don't think many people are looking at the structure of div 3 racing as the fundemental gateway to doping - but in united states it is... in my view. also in europe.

just think, in united states cycling you aren't insured any money for racing without results. in european racing you are only insured that you will get paid until the end of the year... what about next year? and you know that if you get certain results, then you will be worth a certain amount of money, give or take. you know that if you don't get any results that you will make very little money, and you will have to hope that a star rider will want you to be their water carrier/you have a sponsor that helps form the team, etc. if there were more guarantees in cycling for the athletes, that they would be able to do their sport with security (being able to go in and out of form throught one year and over the course of multiple years) like it was going to be their future for sure for a number of years, then the insentive to dope would dimenish. still i'm sure some people would want to dope - but if there were harsh penalties, and harsh probation periods after suspension, perhaps that would help, because the real issue is that: ECONOMICALLY IT IS WORTH IT TO DOPE FOR PROS AT ALL LEVELS given the current structure of the sport, versus the potential costs (excluding health and conscience (if it makes the pang at all)).

 

[Michele]

I already reported a couple of times about a guy paying around 50.000euro (by his own sponsor probably) for a ride at Fuji Servetto 2 years ago.

 

[Fester]

Paco Manceobo was riding for €900 euro a month in Portugal, now I know SFA about Portuguese employment law, but that would surely have to be close to minimum wage, right? I think if I was in the case of having to ride for nothing, or very little money, I think it's time to find a new job. Gianni Savio said earlier this year that he was approached by two riders who wanted to ride for a jersey and a bike, and he told them to get lost. At least that is his version of events.

National minimum wage is about half that in Portugal but they get 14 months pay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

Also most cyclists are self employed, which means that many laws are circumvented. This is the problem in France, they have to hire people lawfully and it's expensive!

Paco Mancebo; there is someone who genuinely loves to race his bike. I don't think he's thinking of he might one day return to the big leagues. What I do know is that he's one of the most talented rider around.

 

[craig1985]

It wouldn't surprise me if Mancebo's name is on the UCI blacklist. Like Rasmussen, Heras etc. Sign these riders at your peril.

 

[Michele]

Rumsas as well.

 

[AngusW]

I believe there was an American rider on one of the top ProTour teams last year who rode for free. His name escapes me, but he was reported saying something like:

"Everybody in cycling has a team and takes a team salary. I am essentially racing for free. No salary. No bonus. Nothing on the line.… This one’s on the house. And you know what? At the end of the day, I don’t need money.…"

 

[craig1985]

National minimum wage is about half that in Portugal but they get 14 months pay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

Also most cyclists are self employed, which means that many laws are circumvented. This is the problem in France, they have to hire people lawfully and it's expensive!

Paco Mancebo; there is someone who genuinely loves to race his bike. I don't think he's thinking of he might one day return to the big leagues. What I do know is that he's one of the most talented rider around.

That is quite bad. In Australia, the minimum weekly wage is $570 per week for somebody over the age of 18, and works 38 hours a week.

 

[BroDeal]

I believe there was an American rider on one of the top ProTour teams last year who rode for free. His name escapes me, but he was reported saying something like:

"Everybody in cycling has a team and takes a team salary. I am essentially racing for free. No salary. No bonus. Nothing on the line.… This one’s on the house. And you know what? At the end of the day, I don’t need money.…"

Isn't that the guy who was collecting millions in race start fees while having his charity pay for his private jet flights?

 

[craig1985]

You are Sherlock Holmes and I claim my five pounds.

 

[For The World]

I believe there was an American rider on one of the top ProTour teams last year who rode for free. His name escapes me, but he was reported saying something like:

"Everybody in cycling has a team and takes a team salary. I am essentially racing for free. No salary. No bonus. Nothing on the line.… This one’s on the house. And you know what? At the end of the day, I don’t need money.…"

Wait wait wait... I think I know this one... this was... nope. I lost it. Damn. OH! It's Big George right?! I KNEW he was a good egg.