I noticed in the Pro Bike feature Tom Boonen is on Record not super Record. Many pro teams seem to be favouring this. Anyone know why?
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Pro Teams on Record not SR
- Thread starter thatsallfolks
- Start date
thatsallfolks said:
Because they're smarter with their money than the average weekend warrior when it comes to fitting out bikes!
If you check out the spare parts catalogues for Campag, you'll see that there is practically no difference in the functional parts (ie., Ergo internals, derailleur springs, etc) between any of the 11 speed gruppos. This has pretty much always been the Campag way - so that even lower spec gruppos share a lot in common with the top race gear.
So, functionally speaking, there is absolutely no difference between Record and Super Record - and I defy anyone to come up with any meaningful difference between the gruppos that is anything other than cosmetic.
The biggest difference is the few extra grams of weight that comes with Record. However, as most pro bikes are easily built under the UCI limits, this isn't an issue either - especially since the extra weight resides mainly in things like shifter blades, chain ring bolts and derailleur cages.
Therefore, there is no disadvantage/penalty to using Record - or for that matter Chorus or even Athena (depending on lever blade and crank arm material choice) - as against Super Record.
Which brings me back to my original, (somewhat) tongue in cheek comment about saving a few bucks ... Unless of course it's part of a Campag marketing strategy - something along the lines of "look, our second tier gruppos are good enough to beat the pro gruppos from Shimano and SRAM" ...
- Feb 10, 2010
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kiwirider said:
Campag made the strategic mistake of letting Shimano flourish way back in the 1980's. No one thought Shimano's kit was much good then and Shimano HAD to price it cheap. It was okay. Better than some European brands that were still around at the time commanding way more money.
I see SRAM eating into their premium business again. Doing what you suggest may be exactly what they have in mind. Either that, or Campag misses another opportunity and gives market share away to SRAM.
- Jul 23, 2009
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thatsallfolks said:
When SuperRecord/Record came out in 2009 it seemed Record was not needed, superfulous. I think the reason they made Record at all(SR w/o titanium 'bits') was specifically for sponsored teams. Works like SR, wee bit heavier.
- Jul 23, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
sram isn't eating into Campagnolo's share, it's eating into shimano's share, since they both do so much OEM. Campagnolo is aftermarket stuff and a bike that starts with a frame is more likely to have Campagnolo than anything else. sram is medioce stuff marketed well from a company tHAT HAS DEEP Pockets.
Red is the high end for sram but it isn't 'premium' at all.
- Mar 10, 2009
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Exactly.
...Exactly...
kiwirider said:Because they're smarter with their money than the average weekend warrior when it comes to fitting out bikes!
If you check out the spare parts catalogues for Campag, you'll see that there is practically no difference in the functional parts (ie., Ergo internals, derailleur springs, etc) between any of the 11 speed gruppos. This has pretty much always been the Campag way - so that even lower spec gruppos share a lot in common with the top race gear.
So, functionally speaking, there is absolutely no difference between Record and Super Record - and I defy anyone to come up with any meaningful difference between the gruppos that is anything other than cosmetic.
The biggest difference is the few extra grams of weight that comes with Record. However, as most pro bikes are easily built under the UCI limits, this isn't an issue either - especially since the extra weight resides mainly in things like shifter blades, chain ring bolts and derailleur cages.
Therefore, there is no disadvantage/penalty to using Record - or for that matter Chorus or even Athena (depending on lever blade and crank arm material choice) - as against Super Record.
Which brings me back to my original, (somewhat) tongue in cheek comment about saving a few bucks ... Unless of course it's part of a Campag marketing strategy - something along the lines of "look, our second tier gruppos are good enough to beat the pro gruppos from Shimano and SRAM" ...
...Exactly...
thatsallfolks said:
I'm surprised that noone mentioned the most obvious reason. 11-speed chains are more narrow not to say flimsy. If you're putting out 1800W in a sprint you'd like a chain that is capable of taking that abuse more than just once without running the risk of failure. Besides even for a pro-team it's expensive to replace drive-trains twice as often as usual. SR wasn't designed with racing in mind but rather for the dentist who rides his overprized Colnago down to the coffee shop once a week on Sunday for a latte.
Bustedknuckle said:
I couldn't disagree more with that statement. If I have any say in a bike built it certainly will never have any Campag on it. It is the most overprized least value for money componentry going around. If it wasn't for Shimano pushing technology to new level's in the late 80's and 90's Record would still have down tube shifters today! Besides the fact the Campag is the most cumbersome to set-up of them all. I don't disagree that Record works well when set-up properly but as a mechanic you loose some nerve getting it right. SRAM and Shimano on the other hand are a breeze to set-up and designed with the mechanic in mind.
- Mar 10, 2009
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Huh?
Mr. mad black,
You are aware that Record is 11 speed too (as well as Chorus and Athena)?
As for installation and set up - I am far from an accomplished bike wrench but I can get a Campy component set installed and tuned very quickly.
Keep riding the "S" brand(s) but I think you might not really be "in the know" about the "C" brand...
Mr. mad black,
You are aware that Record is 11 speed too (as well as Chorus and Athena)?
As for installation and set up - I am far from an accomplished bike wrench but I can get a Campy component set installed and tuned very quickly.
Keep riding the "S" brand(s) but I think you might not really be "in the know" about the "C" brand...
- Mar 12, 2009
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mad black said:
Complete BS. Please back up any of your statements with fact.
Chains are more flimsy...based on what..the width? I do remember dura-ace chains failing a few years ago...never campy. Go back to 5 speed then, those chains were nice and fat. Bad logic.
Bad value? Seriously. Based on what? Easy repair and replacement of parts? Cost of equivalent groups?
Hard to set up? So what if it takes longer to set up, and I am not saying that it does. How does it work on the road?
Changing drive trains twice as often? Really? Data please.
Campy did play catch up for a while, true. Not any more. Look at the use of Carbon in their components...even Shimano is doing that now. What about 10 speed and 11 speed? Internally routed (under bar tape) shifter cables?
Please make sure to back up your bias with well reasoned arguments and fact. You made the claims no go out there and provide us all with the evidence to support them.
For the record I have both Campy and Shimano on my bikes and like them both.
- Jul 23, 2009
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mad black said:
SR/Record/Chorus/Athena all 11s..
Campagnolo is easy to set up and stays tat way. so does shimano, sram does not. 'sram the 'mechanic in mind'??
Even tho you can take the sram levers apart, how many small lever bits does sram stock?. I give you a hint, it's less than 1%.
BBs(ceramic) failing early on along with pulleys(don't ride in the wet), soft chainrings, poor FDers, broken chains, noisy cogsets..yep, Red is great...if you replace the cables and housing..and use a Force FD and a Force cogset....and a shimano chain...and a Force BB....
sram is cheap and light...mostly cheap. Overmarketed and mediocre stuff.
mad black said:
Really? I'm no mechanic, and up until now I thought that I had an OK level of technical skill. However, in light of posts like yours and the crap about people constantly needing to adjust rear der cables that keeps appearing on the "electronic shifting is nirvana" threads, I'm beginning to think that I may be selling my skills a bit short ...
My cross bike came with Tiagra and FSA and I swapped that out for a complete Campag gruppo - square taper Record cranks and 2009 model Veloce. I did this sitting in the sun in my buddy's back yard - he had a (pretty damn wobbly) work stand and a couple of tools that I needed to borrow. The whole exercise took something like 2 hours from untaping the bars to retaping the bars - including the obligatory stopping for a coffee, chatting and so forth. Bike rode perfectly and gears shifted properly from the first pedal stroke. And like I say, I'm no expert ... so if I can do it, then surely any half decent bike shop should be able to set up Campag without "losing some nerve" ...???
I also agree with the comments by steelciocc, Black Dog and Bustedknuckle ...
Oh, and I guess this is a good time to remind people of the classic saying (with my own edit to bring it up to date):
Shimano and SRAM just wear out, while Campagnolo just wears in ....
- Mar 18, 2009
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Black Dog said:
At the very least we can shoot down the idea that Campy is way expensive. It is if you buy in the U.S., but anyone reading this is connected to Internet. It is dead simple to buy from the UK, where the exchange rate makes Campy nicely priced. Campy's U.S. distribution model blows.
Campy's rep for being expensive comes from the 90's. Evidently no one has done a new comparison with Shimano, which has steadily jacked their prices up. Ultegra brifters now cost what an entire Ultegra group did in the 90's.
Alright, admittedly I haven’t had a great deal of experience with the latest models Campag because I don’t need to anymore. I also admit I was wrong about the 10speed Record. In my defence when SR first came out Record was still 10speed for the season. I also realize that SR uses the Record chain so this argument is clearly invalid and I apologise.
But that’s about all I concede.
1. Campag is overprized and less value for money:
The mere fact that Campag is rarely used as OEM should be proof enough that Campag is simply too expensive. Taking advantage of exchange rates doesn’t qualify as an argument in my opinion since this is taken advantage of outside factors (not that there’s anything wrong with it though).
2. Campag is cumbersome to set-up and designed without the mechanic in mind:
Changing gear and brake cables on the Ergo levers is a major pain. It’s nearly impossible to reuse a cable that had been cut previously on a fully mounted bar set-up (i.e. when you’re just shortening the outer cable.)
Power Torque Crank Sets – how many fingers do you have to break to position that bloody spring correctly on the drive side especially with the ever increasing size of carbon frame BB areas? And 42 Nm crank bolt torque someone show me how you do that with a normal shifter. Also the chunky crank puller? So you’d like me to scratch your $700+ crank set?
I personally never mastered the art of fitting and adjusting a new Campag front derailleur. It consistently takes 15 minutes to get the angle just right. I’m open to advice though. I remember one particular case where we fitted a Dura Ace FD to a complete Record set-up because three very capable mechanics failed to convince the Record FD to shift without dragging under load.
3. Use of Carbon in crank sets:
While it makes sense to use carbon in certain applications Shimano is steering well clear of carbon in crank sets for one reason namely rigidity. That’s why the Dura Ace crank set is the most rigid on the market. And, yes they do make an aftermarket carbon crank set (with aluminium core) but it’s just that - aftermarket for the carbon fanatic.
4. SRAM components are inferior:
That should actually be a completely separate thread. But for what it’s worth my experience has been pretty positive so far. I haven’t come across any of the issues listed by Bustedknuckle. And fitting and adjustment certainly is easy. However, I acknowledge that a Dura Ace chain works by far better on the Red set-up.
I’m awaiting a tirade of criticism and rebuttals so please don’t be shy. However, I understand that this is almost a question of religion and it will be contentious until the end of days.
Cheers,
Mad
But that’s about all I concede.
1. Campag is overprized and less value for money:
The mere fact that Campag is rarely used as OEM should be proof enough that Campag is simply too expensive. Taking advantage of exchange rates doesn’t qualify as an argument in my opinion since this is taken advantage of outside factors (not that there’s anything wrong with it though).
2. Campag is cumbersome to set-up and designed without the mechanic in mind:
Changing gear and brake cables on the Ergo levers is a major pain. It’s nearly impossible to reuse a cable that had been cut previously on a fully mounted bar set-up (i.e. when you’re just shortening the outer cable.)
Power Torque Crank Sets – how many fingers do you have to break to position that bloody spring correctly on the drive side especially with the ever increasing size of carbon frame BB areas? And 42 Nm crank bolt torque someone show me how you do that with a normal shifter. Also the chunky crank puller? So you’d like me to scratch your $700+ crank set?
I personally never mastered the art of fitting and adjusting a new Campag front derailleur. It consistently takes 15 minutes to get the angle just right. I’m open to advice though. I remember one particular case where we fitted a Dura Ace FD to a complete Record set-up because three very capable mechanics failed to convince the Record FD to shift without dragging under load.
3. Use of Carbon in crank sets:
While it makes sense to use carbon in certain applications Shimano is steering well clear of carbon in crank sets for one reason namely rigidity. That’s why the Dura Ace crank set is the most rigid on the market. And, yes they do make an aftermarket carbon crank set (with aluminium core) but it’s just that - aftermarket for the carbon fanatic.
4. SRAM components are inferior:
That should actually be a completely separate thread. But for what it’s worth my experience has been pretty positive so far. I haven’t come across any of the issues listed by Bustedknuckle. And fitting and adjustment certainly is easy. However, I acknowledge that a Dura Ace chain works by far better on the Red set-up.
I’m awaiting a tirade of criticism and rebuttals so please don’t be shy. However, I understand that this is almost a question of religion and it will be contentious until the end of days.
Cheers,
Mad
- Jul 23, 2009
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mad black said:
Sorry mate, but that claimed defence in the first para doesn't hold. Check out this link to Campag's website - and you'll see that the product catalogues for everything down to Chorus show 11 speed ... http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/doc/doccatid_1.jsp
As for a couple of your other comments:
- your OEM argument is spurious. Whether kit comes OEM depends on so many factors that have no relevance outside of the corporate board rooms where the OEM contracts are signed. Geography also plays a big part - I've seen a good number of bikes with Campag as standard in Europe, while back in my native NZ, pretty much all you see is Shimano. (And some of those same bikes that wear Shimano in NZ wear SRAM up here in Canada.)
- my understanding of Campag's strategy is that it has only a limited interest in the OEM market. Granted, that is reportedly because it missed the boat on that game back in the day - but if that is the strategy, looking at the number of OEM bikes with Campag isn't actually going to provide an indicator of very much.
- I had to cut the outers on my cross bike up by the bars shortly after I converted it to Campag (long story of running an adapter cassette while I killed the Shimano wheels my bike came with) and found that the easiest way to adjust the outer length was to pull the cable partly out so that it was past where I wanted to cut, make the cut and then push it all back through. Similar story at the back end if you want to cut that outer. No need to remove the cable from the Ergo body, no hassles - and no need to rethread.
- as for front derailleur set up - like Bustedknuckle says, it's simple. I'll give you this bit of advice - if you can't set up a Record front derailleur, stay well away from one of the XTR M-952 models! (I think that's the right number - the one with the jointed sides that move their alignment as the cage body moves.) I've got one on my MTB - and while it is bombproof to run once its set up (much better than the paper thin XTR models that followed it in my opinion), it is an absolute pig to set up ...
And to show that I'm not a "religous zealot" - I run SRAM X.0 on my Scalpel and think that it is the best offering for a MTB gruppo that is available. I first tried gripshift back in 2000 (my MTB had Plasma shifters and XTR derailleurs) and became an instant convert. Sadly though, SRAM don't seem to have put that same quality into their road offerings ...
kiwirider said:
There may not be much of a functional difference between Record and Super Record, but I can definitely tell the difference between Super Record and the new Super Duper Record I'm riding.
I notice that a lot of SRAM pro teams don't use the powerdome cassette,the chain or the titanium fd.I have even seen one pro team that uses force brakes in stead of Red.
That doesn't leave much of the originaj group left apart from the quirky levers and unremarkable chainset and rear mech.
That doesn't leave much of the originaj group left apart from the quirky levers and unremarkable chainset and rear mech.
Velo Dude said:
Good one, i hear campy is working in conjunction with Starbucks on a group to replace it
MEGA GRANDE Super Duper Record
and the main highlight will be a special UltraTorqueBarrista crank.
You simply drop coffee beans down the seatube where they are ground and then roasted and finally after reaching the minmum wattage for 5 minutes espresso will be dispensed from a small nozzle hidden in the front mech.
Pro team managers are excited because this will eliminate the need for coffee breaks on training rides
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