Problem with Campag Centaur Ergo Shifter

[Fiemme]

I have an issue with a Campag Centuar Quick Shift (i think 2008 gen) Shifting lever. When changing from the Large chain-ring to the small chain-ring the first down shift is usually a small shift to stop chain rub then the second down shift drops to the chain to the inner chain-ring. However the shifter I have works in the inverse manner and is almost near impossible to get correct adjustment.

I aquired thes levers about three years ago as a favour to a freind who informed me of the problem. I have decided to do a retro fit of an old frame for my son to start using and the down shift issue is becoming more of a nuisance now he uses the bigger chainring more often.

I know these levers can be overhauled, which i have never done, and was wondering if any of the components can be installed "upside down", "back to front" to cause this problem and can it be reversed by a simple rebuild or would i need to purchase a rebuild kit from campag.

 

[Hawkwood]

I have an issue with a Campag Centuar Quick Shift (i think 2008 gen) Shifting lever. When changing from the Large chain-ring to the small chain-ring the first down shift is usually a small shift to stop chain rub then the second down shift drops to the chain to the inner chain-ring. However the shifter I have works in the inverse manner and is almost near impossible to get correct adjustment.

Why are you doing a `small shift to stop chain rub' before doing the main shift? I just push the button down two or three clicks and do any fine-tuning if required once the chain is on the small ring.

There are instructions available online for servicing the levers, so it might be worth loooking these up. I have used Centaur equipment for a number of years with no issues at all.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I have an issue with a Campag Centuar Quick Shift (i think 2008 gen) Shifting lever. When changing from the Large chain-ring to the small chain-ring the first down shift is usually a small shift to stop chain rub then the second down shift drops to the chain to the inner chain-ring. However the shifter I have works in the inverse manner and is almost near impossible to get correct adjustment.

I aquired thes levers about three years ago as a favour to a freind who informed me of the problem. I have decided to do a retro fit of an old frame for my son to start using and the down shift issue is becoming more of a nuisance now he uses the bigger chainring more often.

I know these levers can be overhauled, which i have never done, and was wondering if any of the components can be installed "upside down", "back to front" to cause this problem and can it be reversed by a simple rebuild or would i need to purchase a rebuild kit from campag.

You mean, pushing the shift lever(not the thumb button), shifts to small ring and thumb button push, brings chain to big ring?

"However the shifter I have works in the inverse manner and is almost near impossible to get correct adjustment."

 

[Fiemme]

You mean, pushing the shift lever(not the thumb button), shifts to small ring and thumb button push, brings chain to big ring?

"However the shifter I have works in the inverse manner and is almost near impossible to get correct adjustment."

When I'm on the big chainring and use the "Thumb Button" to stop chain rub (when on the large gogs at the rear) the movement of the front derailleur is quite large and shifts the chain to the inner ring.

With other centuar shifters i've installed and used the first down shift click (Thumb Button click) when on the big chainring usually provides a small movement just to stop chainrub through the changes on the rear casstte. This one i have seems to work in the opposite manor. The first downshift shift is quite large and can drop the chain to the inner ring which leaves the second downshift uselsee.

 

[bobgod]

Thinking about this---there's not a lot of trim with the thumb lever.I think you may have a rigging problem between the front derailleur stops and the lever limits.That is ,the derailleur hits its stop before the lever is correctly positioned , or vice versa.
Try resetting the cable at the derailleur.There is nothing that can be reversed
I dont think.

 

[Master50]

I have a record FD of the Quick Shift variety and I don't have to trim for chain rub in BIG Big or Big Small. I can shift he entire cassette without trimming the FD so I think Start the setup from scratch and check the details again. Derraller stops first so small big does't rub not big small etc.

 

[Fiemme]

I have a record FD of the Quick Shift variety and I don't have to trim for chain rub in BIG Big or Big Small. I can shift he entire cassette without trimming the FD so I think Start the setup from scratch and check the details again. Derraller stops first so small big does't rub not big small etc.

I understand. I have chorus on a bike and there is no need to trim for chain rub either. However the difference between the record/chorus and centaur is that the record has four or five clicks on the down shift where as Centaur is similar to the shimano action and only has two downshift clicks. Record and Chorus are similar in their actions they ratchet up and down. Where as centaur and veloce had a ratchet up action but a two step down action. But with the Centaur's downshift, two action clicking, there is always a need to trim for chain rub. That's why the first downshift action should only move the derailleur a small disatnce.

I have installed these on numerous bikes with out any problem. My father has the same shifter on his bike and I have gone to the trouble of swapping them but the problem is same on my fathers bike when we did the swap. I've tried adjusting everything on the bike I am now convinced that the fault lies with the Shifter. I have measured the differance and on the faulty shifter the first downshift causes the derailleur to move 6mm. Where as on the good shifter the first down shift is only 3mm. Enough for chain rub trim.

As I have never dismantled one of these shifters my main concern was whether anything could be installed incorrectly to cause this. But Bobgod has answered this.

I think I may just purchase a new internal kit and rebuild the shifter. Can anyone let me know what is supplied. Do you get a new pawl mechanism. ie the thing with all of the teeth on it.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

When I'm on the big chainring and use the "Thumb Button" to stop chain rub (when on the large gogs at the rear) the movement of the front derailleur is quite large and shifts the chain to the inner ring.

With other centuar shifters i've installed and used the first down shift click (Thumb Button click) when on the big chainring usually provides a small movement just to stop chainrub through the changes on the rear casstte. This one i have seems to work in the opposite manor. The first downshift shift is quite large and can drop the chain to the inner ring which leaves the second downshift uselsee.

2007/8 Centaur went to Xenon based shift innards, one higher gear at a time for the RH lever(vs a dump) and LH lever/FD lever is much more positional, what you are seeing. Really only 3 clicks. If you adjust the FD to be really close to the chain when on largest cog(lowest gear) and small ring, the trim will help a little.

 

[Master50]

When I'm on the big chainring and use the "Thumb Button" to stop chain rub (when on the large gogs at the rear) the movement of the front derailleur is quite large and shifts the chain to the inner ring.

With other centuar shifters i've installed and used the first down shift click (Thumb Button click) when on the big chainring usually provides a small movement just to stop chainrub through the changes on the rear casstte. This one i have seems to work in the opposite manor. The first downshift shift is quite large and can drop the chain to the inner ring which leaves the second downshift uselsee.

I think you have adjusted the shift cable too tight If you should need 2 clicks to go big to small and you can do it in 1 click then you have to turn the slack adjuster in to give more cable to get to the last click.
If you loosen the cable can you get another click toward the big ring?
I hope the explanation makes sense but I did have exactly this problem and it was related to getting the full cable travel when in the big ring and small cog.

 

[Hawkwood]

As at least one poster has noted Centaur went from a Ultra-Shift mechanism to a Power-Shift one. I have two sets of Centaur Ergopower levers, one an earlier version with alloy levers, the other a newer set with carbon ones. I specifically made sure that the carbon levers had the Ultra-Shift mechanism. I think the original poster needs to establish whether he/she has the Ultra-Shift or Power-Shift levers and then set them up accordingly. It could also be that the FDs are optimised for either Ultra or Power-Shift, so worth checking that as well.

 

[fasthill]

I think the original poster needs to establish whether he/she has the Ultra-Shift or Power-Shift levers and then set them up accordingly.

He said it's a 2008 model. Powershift is a 2011 model.

It could also be that the FDs are optimised for either Ultra or Power-Shift, so worth checking that as well.

Campag shifters will shift any FD. The issue OP is having is definitely with the shifter.

I just checked ebay and there is an Ultrashift assembly body for sale (in the US) for $77. You can score a pair of new Veloce (with a silver option too) from Ribble for under $100 + shipping. There are minor cosmetic differences between Veloce and Centaur.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

He said it's a 2008 model. Powershift is a 2011 model.



Campag shifters will shift any FD. The issue OP is having is definitely with the shifter.

I just checked ebay and there is an Ultrashift assembly body for sale (in the US) for $77. You can score a pair of new Veloce (with a silver option too) from Ribble for under $100 + shipping. There are minor cosmetic differences between Veloce and Centaur.

2008 Centaur 'works' the same as Powershift.

2007/8 Centaur and Veloce and all Powershift(2011 Athena and below) will NOT shift any Campagnolo FD. Only those marked 'QS' or anything 2008 or later.

 

[Master50]

If the guts are worn then a rebuild kit will fix it but if the cable is too tight it is possible the 3rd click has bee adjusted out of action. If this shifter has 3 clicks and in shifting he only gets 2 then he needs to readjust the cable. If the problem is 3 clicks but the FD won't stay engaged in 1 of the click positions then a rebuild. One of the great features of Campy is the rebuild ability

 

[Bustedknuckle]

If the guts are worn then a rebuild kit will fix it but if the cable is too tight it is possible the 3rd click has bee adjusted out of action. If this shifter has 3 clicks and in shifting he only gets 2 then he needs to readjust the cable. If the problem is 3 clicks but the FD won't stay engaged in 1 of the click positions then a rebuild. One of the great features of Campy is the rebuild ability

Not QS, 2007/8 Centaur, no parts available, guts not the same as 2006 ERGO or Record/Chorus 2007/8. 2007/8 guts the same as Xenon..

Look at this

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/Spares08_A_1007.pdf

Page 46-48

Compare to this.

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/spares06_A.pdf

Page 68

 

[Fiemme]

Thanks for the comments. I finally got around to removing the lever from the bars and the first thing I noticed was that the retaining screw holding all of the inner's together was loose. After pulling it completely apart and reassembling (which was a bit if a trial) it now works correctly. Also there was a fair amount of old hardened grease that was clogging one of the pawls. I think these levers may have been overhauled once before.

Again thanks for the feedback.

 

[fasthill]

2007/8 Centaur and Veloce and all Powershift(2011 Athena and below) will NOT shift any Campagnolo FD. Only those marked 'QS' or anything 2008 or later.

If your point of reference is a marketing brochure, then I guess you're right. In real world though, not only any Campag FD will work, Shimano and SRAM will too. There's nothing in the FD design that will prevent it from shifting regardless of what shifters are used. Until not long ago, I've been running almost 20yo Shimano dérailleurs with 2011 Centaur shifters without any problems. Derailleurs simply don't care what pulls them.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

If your point of reference is a marketing brochure, then I guess you're right. In real world though, not only any Campag FD will work, Shimano and SRAM will too. There's nothing in the FD design that will prevent it from shifting regardless of what shifters are used. Until not long ago, I've been running almost 20yo Shimano dérailleurs with 2011 Centaur shifters without any problems. Derailleurs simply don't care what pulls them.

27 years in a bike shop, not a marketing brochure. Beg to differ but on positional LH shifters, like sram and shimano and 2011 Powershift and Xenon, it does matter which FD you use. Yes, on 2006 and older ERGO, 2009 Ultrashift, 2010 Ultrashift and 2011/12 SR/Record and Chorus, it does not matter. On Powershift, Xenon and those shifters that are Xenon design based, it does.

 

[Master50]

BK
I find it hard to think of any FD that needs cable pull much different to go from small ring to big ring. Picking a number out of a hat I am thinking the cable pull for almost all FD must be nearly the same. IF shimano need 25mm of pull I would bet most all FD would use around the same pull. I mean the difference between a small chainring to large chainring is hardly any different no mater 5 speed or 11. Despite marketing hype the geometry of FD has not changed much since the 70s. Yes FD have gotten narrower and have better shapes etc. but the amount of cable pul to swing the FD just cannot be that widely variant.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

BK
I find it hard to think of any FD that needs cable pull much different to go from small ring to big ring. Picking a number out of a hat I am thinking the cable pull for almost all FD must be nearly the same. IF shimano need 25mm of pull I would bet most all FD would use around the same pull. I mean the difference between a small chainring to large chainring is hardly any different no mater 5 speed or 11. Despite marketing hype the geometry of FD has not changed much since the 70s. Yes FD have gotten narrower and have better shapes etc. but the amount of cable pul to swing the FD just cannot be that widely variant.

Well, with positional shifters, it makes a huge difference. Why a shimano STI won't shift a Campagnolo FD Not the cage but the arm length, position of the pivots in relation to the FD arms, etc. Those dimensions in combo with the spool diameter in the LH lever, makes some FDers work and others not.

Even a 7900 LH shifter won't really work with a 7800 FD. And a 7700 STI won't keep the chain from dragging with a 7800/7900 FD.

Similar for Rders. Trying to move the chain the same amount each shift for say, 10s but spool dimension coupled with RD dimension makes some compatible, others not.

 

[Master50]

Well, with positional shifters, it makes a huge difference. Why a shimano STI won't shift a Campagnolo FD Not the cage but the arm length, position of the pivots in relation to the FD arms, etc. Those dimensions in combo with the spool diameter in the LH lever, makes some FDers work and others not.

Even a 7900 LH shifter won't really work with a 7800 FD. And a 7700 STI won't keep the chain from dragging with a 7800/7900 FD.

Similar for Rders. Trying to move the chain the same amount each shift for say, 10s but spool dimension coupled with RD dimension makes some compatible, others not.

I just ran downstairs to measure a 1989 dura ace fd a C record FD a 10 speed record pre QS and a Record 10 speed QS FD. the top arm length is the same on all 4 from the cable stop to the centre of the pivot. I did look at the Old Xton my wires MTB too
The MTB does have a longer lever and my XTR is top pull so it is a different design.

So explain how or why I could not use this old DA FD with any of my record levers? if the arm is the same length then the pull must be the same if the rings are spaced the same and they are. I would agree that not all FD are using the same cable pull or different lever lengths and of course double or triple shifters. It does appear to me that MTB FD are definitely using different FD than road ones. I am not sure an old style friction road shifter could pull enough cable to use the MTB FDs

Certainly rear derralliers are more affected by small variations. I have not seen the newest FD from Shimano but certainly their older FD are looking pretty compatible with Campy shifters. Especially the 5 click ones

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I just ran downstairs to measure a 1989 dura ace fd a C record FD a 10 speed record pre QS and a Record 10 speed QS FD. the top arm length is the same on all 4 from the cable stop to the centre of the pivot. I did look at the Old Xton my wires MTB too
The MTB does have a longer lever and my XTR is top pull so it is a different design.

So explain how or why I could not use this old DA FD with any of my record levers? if the arm is the same length then the pull must be the same if the rings are spaced the same and they are. I would agree that not all FD are using the same cable pull or different lever lengths and of course double or triple shifters. It does appear to me that MTB FD are definitely using different FD than road ones. I am not sure an old style friction road shifter could pull enough cable to use the MTB FDs

Certainly rear derralliers are more affected by small variations. I have not seen the newest FD from Shimano but certainly their older FD are looking pretty compatible with Campy shifters. Especially the 5 click ones

YOU CAN use Record on any FD. Record shifters are a ratcheting friction type, not 'positional' like sram or shimano or Powershift.

 

[Master50]

YOU CAN use Record on any FD. Record shifters are a ratcheting friction type, not 'positional' like sram or shimano or Powershift.

I think I am getting it now. ratcheting vs positional? I take it rears are positional then? Off to the microfiche I go cause I still am not sure what the difference is

 

[bobgod]

Here,s a deal--this week in New Zealand---New.
USD 40.00---no reserve -no bids.They may put it on again.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=465303047

 

[Fiemme]

I think I am getting it now. ratcheting vs positional? I take it rears are positional then? Off to the microfiche I go cause I still am not sure what the difference is

What BK is trying to say is that Record Ratches up and down. If it takes four clicks to go up it takes four clicks to come down. with Shimano, Sram and Powershift/Xenon it may take four clicks to go up but it is always two clicks to come down. This is referred to a 'positional' shifting.

The tolerances on a Record FD differ to those on a Centaur FD. They are manufactured this way to achieve correct 'positional' shifting. Also note that these differences in tolerance can be less than 1mm, but it makes all the difference in correct operation. Its not the dimension from cable stop to pivot its the centre to centre dimension's of the parallelogram and/or pivot points of the FD.

I'm not saying that it won't work completely, you may get away with using a Record FD with a DA/powershift lever but it won't work as good as using a Record lever.

A 'Positional' Lever will work better with a compatibly mated 'Positional' designed FD. And a 'Ratchet' Lever will work just as good with a 'Positional' designed FD. But you may experience problems with a 'Positional' lever and a non compatible FD.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

What BK is trying to say is that Record Ratches up and down. If it takes four clicks to go up it takes four clicks to come down. with Shimano, Sram and Powershift/Xenon it may take four clicks to go up but it is always two clicks to come down. This is referred to a 'positional' shifting.

The tolerances on a Record FD differ to those on a Centaur FD. They are manufactured this way to achieve correct 'positional' shifting. Also note that these differences in tolerance can be less than 1mm, but it makes all the difference in correct operation. Its not the dimension from cable stop to pivot its the centre to centre dimension's of the parallelogram and/or pivot points of the FD.

I'm not saying that it won't work completely, you may get away with using a Record FD with a DA/powershift lever but it won't work as good as using a Record lever.

A 'Positional' Lever will work better with a compatibly mated 'Positional' designed FD. And a 'Ratchet' Lever will work just as good with a 'Positional' designed FD. But you may experience problems with a 'Positional' lever and a non compatible FD.

what he said.