Pulmonary Embolisms Happen All The Time

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Jul 10, 2009
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She already had 2 risk factors for DVT/PE (recent surgery and multi hour plane flights) so the fact that she had a PE doesn't tell us anything about what she might be on.

Small DVTs are amazingly common after long haul flights - most go undiagnosed. In addition there are testable genetic traits which make some people more susceptible to DVT/PE - often those people who have recurrent DVT/PE for no obvious reason turn out to be genetically predisposed.
 
Dec 30, 2010
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Speculation runneth over.

I am a tennis fan and I believe that PEDs are rampant in women's tennis. Serena is one of the most likely dopers in a dirty game. It's not surprising that people speculate that every odd incident with Serena is due to doping.

However, Serena hasn't played competively in over 6 months, and the next "grand slam" is more than 2 months away (these are the tournaments that tennis players are most likely to "cycle up" for). As well, her game style (power) does not require large amounts of endurance. She may be an EPO user, but the likelyhood is low, and she almost certainly would not be using it now.

The fact that she has had recent surgery, and her bulky build (maybe due to steroids, and or growth hormones) may be contributing factors, but I don't believe that EPO was the cause of this latest ailment.
 
Andynonomous said:
I am a tennis fan and I believe that PEDs are rampant in women's tennis. Serena is one of the most likely dopers in a dirty game. It's not surprising that people speculate that every odd incident with Serena is due to doping.

However, Serena hasn't played competively in over 6 months, and the next "grand slam" is more than 2 months away (these are the tournaments that tennis players are most likely to "cycle up" for). As well, her game style (power) does not require large amounts of endurance. She may be an EPO user, but the likelyhood is low, and she almost certainly would not be using it now.

The fact that she has had recent surgery, and her bulky build (maybe due to steroids, and or growth hormones) may be contributing factors, but I don't believe that EPO was the cause of this latest ailment.
I don't think one should even suggest that it's EPO - anyway I hope for her sake it isn't - because there are too many possible causes, some of which are perfectly natural ones.

Evidence does exist to suggest that any sort of blood doping massively increases the risk of pulmonary embolism. If I have understood the facts correctly, and it appears we have people on here who could confirm that, it's more a question of increased susceptibility rather than direct cause.

Like Mambo95 above, I've known a couple of people who died unexpectedly while being very young, one of whom from DVT. It happens, of course. But unlike Mambo95's examples, in mine there was also a history of considerable drug use which, if I cannot presume to attribute the cause directly for lack of medical evidence or knowledge, is something which always tends to cast a long shadow.
 
Mambo95 said:
I've known three people who died unexpectedly in their twenties/early thirties, and another that had a stroke. Another guy I know has cancer for the second time aged 39 and is going to lose his leg.

Could the forum please tell me which PEDs they took so I can avoid them. Because that's the only possible cause, right?
Right. It's the clinic - guilty until proved otherwise.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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My intent was more to talk about EPO and pulmonary embolisms. I did not do such a good job sticking to that. I brought it up because I've previously read about Serena being previously accused of being a doper, and then yesterday I saw an article where this young, healthy athlete has a pulmonary embolism.

I myself have never known a young person to have suffered such an event.

And I do not accuse Serena of having suffered her case due to EPO use. I just wondered if a link was possible. It appears to be so now. So just another data point for the future.
 
Aug 16, 2009
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Is there not a link between steroid use and DVT/PE - maybe a medico could confirm?

I'm sure I read somewhere that particularly corticosteroids are linked with clotting problems, then again it could be rubbish.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Father Jack said:
Is there not a link between steroid use and DVT/PE - maybe a medico could confirm?

I'm sure I read somewhere that particularly corticosteroids are linked with clotting problems, then again it could be rubbish.
If you don't think tennis players are also using oxygen vector drugs, think again.
 
Aug 16, 2009
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My point was that it increased the risk - steroids + epo + whatever else they are using.

I'm just wondering if I am right about the link between steroid use and clotting problems.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Father Jack said:
My point was that it increased the risk - steroids + epo + whatever else they are using.

I'm just wondering if I am right about the link between steroid use and clotting problems.
I'm having a bad 'reading comprehension' day. Sorry, a few people were assuming that tennis players only did corticos and I did not read yours well enough.
 
JUST A HEALTH NOTE: I had a bro-in-law pass away from multiple pulmonary embolisms (blood clots) that dislodged and got trapped in his lungs. The clots formed after he had a broken leg casted. He had a lot of lung congestion, and it was misdiagnosed as the flu. Two days after the diagnosis and direction to "treat it like flu" from the doc, he died. The autopsy confirmed the clots as cause of death.

What can we learn from this? If you have some traumatizing injury (e.g. broken bone, surgery, or anything that might cause clots to form) or have a family history of clotting, get checked out (by a real doc) if you develop breathing problems. It might save your life.
 
Father Jack said:
My point was that it increased the risk - steroids + epo + whatever else they are using.

I'm just wondering if I am right about the link between steroid use and clotting problems.
Yes there is.

PubMed said:
... The thromboembolic episodes in this previously healthy patient were in all probability associated with intramuscular injections of testosterone and nandrolone, to which there is a clear correlation in time.
Source

... and for blood doping ...

Wikipedia on blood doping said:
The simple act of increasing the number of [red blood cells] in the blood stream makes blood thicker, which can also make it clot more readily. This increases the chances of heart attack, stroke, and pulmonary embolism, which has been seen in cases where there is too much blood reintroduced into the blood stream.

Source
 
Oct 25, 2010
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It's a man, baby!

Tennis ace Serena Williams called it "the scariest moment in my life" when blood clots were recently discovered in her lungs, saying she's "lucky to be alive."
In an interview with NBC's "Today" show, the 13-time Grand Slam champion said she hopes to return to tennis this summer after recovering from a recent pulmonary embolism followed by a hematoma.

Williams spoke from Los Angles, saying she hasn't left the house much since going to the hospital on Feb. 18 when she said she "couldn't breathe."
"I'm lucky I'm alive," she told the current issue of "People" magazine.
The 29-year-old Williams said she had a CAT scan of her lungs and they "found several blood clots."
Williams said the treatment involved self-injecting blood thinners.
As a result, she developed a hematoma in her stomach that grew to the size of "a grapefruit" that had to be surgically removed.
Williams' absence from tennis could stretch to almost a year since winning the women's singles title at Wimbledon last July.
In the "People" magazine interview that hit newsstands this morning, Williams said, "I could have died."
Williams said she couldn't believe she was being hospitalized.
"I thought, 'This can't be happening to me. I don't want to die.'"
Williams also told the magazine that one of her doctors told her it may be time to quit playing tennis.
"One of my doctors said, If I were you, I wouldn't play again,'" she recalled. "I said, 'You're not me.'"

Read more:
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Very sorry to hear about your brother-in-law. I will chime in here as I am an MD.

So, while there are many known risk factors for PE (Google "Virchow's Triad"), it is a very tricky diagnosis to make. PE or DVT can present in many ways that mimic other conditions. The diagnosis requires radiation exposure so investigating it is not risk-free.

I have seen many young people (not athletes, just regular people) with PE or DVT who have no risk factors. Often no cause is found.

Bottom line.... just because Serena has a PE doesn't mean it's from the doping she may or may not have done.



on3m@n@rmy said:
JUST A HEALTH NOTE: I had a bro-in-law pass away from multiple pulmonary embolisms (blood clots) that dislodged and got trapped in his lungs. The clots formed after he had a broken leg casted. He had a lot of lung congestion, and it was misdiagnosed as the flu. Two days after the diagnosis and direction to "treat it like flu" from the doc, he died. The autopsy confirmed the clots as cause of death.

What can we learn from this? If you have some traumatizing injury (e.g. broken bone, surgery, or anything that might cause clots to form) or have a family history of clotting, get checked out (by a real doc) if you develop breathing problems. It might save your life.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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The photo above... and I say this with all honesty. When I first saw the image, I immediately flashed to how Ben Johnson's arms looked when he won the Gold in 1988.

I realize she works with her arms to hit the tennis ball, but so did Martina, and Martina never looked anything like this.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Hope she stays out of the Grand Slams for a long time. Can't stand her at all. She takes so much testosterone and other stuff that she can't even behave normally anymore. Blatantly obvious that she dopes. She's more man than me.

At least in cycling they microdose. In tennis it's out of control it seems. Doping controls are the biggest jokes there. Rasmussen lost his Tour title and pretty much got a perm ban, while Yannina Wickmayer got of for free for pretty much the same thing. C'est une blague.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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El Pistolero said:
Hope she stays out of the Grand Slams for a long time. Can't stand her at all. She takes so much testosterone and other stuff that she can't even behave normally anymore. Blatantly obvious that she dopes. She's more man than me.

At least in cycling they microdose. In tennis it's out of control it seems. Doping controls are the biggest jokes there. Rasmussen lost his Tour title and pretty much got a perm ban, while Yannina Wickmayer got of for free for pretty much the same thing. C'est une blague.
But to be fair she 'd probably be more man than you even without the tesstosterone. :D
 

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