Random Discussion

[Forever The Best]

The threads aim is to ask random questions about sport. This can also be moved into the clinic if mods want.
Watching some highlights from the 2003 Tour I saw that Armstrong was very weak compared to some of his other years ( I mean, Tyler Hamilton with a broken collarbone was almost keeping up with him for half the race ). What was the strongest Lance you would say? I would say 2001 but Hautacam 2000 was a demonstration and 2002 was dominant too.

Another question. What was your favourite season from a rider? I'm not talking about pure statistics here, I'm also talking about the way they rode as well. Vino 2003 for example, or 2005.

 

[tobydawq]

Maybe 2004? He definitely was the most cannibalistic/greedy that year.

 

[Red Rick]

Let's just keep it to results and what happened on the road and keep the Clinic out of this so we can keep it in here.

 

[Jspear]

Maybe 2004? He definitely was the most cannibalistic/greedy that year.

Aye, the year I started watching cycling. I loved Lance that year.

 

[Forever The Best]

Maybe 2004? He definitely was the most cannibalistic/greedy that year.

Well, his Alpe time was strong but it was on a MTT instead of a multi mountain stage like 2001. Also he seemed content riding with Basso in Pyrenees which may have made him go slower in Plateau de Beille ( though looking at the climb times I see he was still faster in 2004 than 2002, which maybe tells us that he was not very strong in 2002 on absolute terms, plus he also got beaten by Botero in one of the TTs )
I'd say 2001, because he demolished everyone on Alpe, and was extremely strong for the rest of the race as well with no bad days.
But 2004 could have been even stronger had he gone full.
What is the weakest year of the seven for Armstrong? Probably 2003 I'd say.

 

[Parker]

If you are wondering about the Armstrong years, his podcast his been revisiting those years if you want to listen, They're quite good - scroll past the ads

 

[Parker]

1995 Jalabert was amazing. But whatever anyone else did, he just trusted his doctors and never questioned if it was EPO. He was UCI ranked number 1 for the next four years and even when walking out in 1998 couldn't summon the curiosiy to ask his doctor what those injections were.

If you were to ask me who the biggest doper in cycling was, my answer is not Armstrong (he's high on the list)

 

[Koronin]

Middle of the Lance years is when I started watching. Of the years I watched 2004 would be his strongest. 2001 was just before I started watching.

Never thought of a favorite season for a rider. Favorite races sure, but not an overall season.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I can see this thread surviving for a long time here

From memory, Lance was stronger in 2002 than 2004. Maybe in 2004 his team was stronger. Azevedo was a beast in the pyrenees. But then again, Heras was an amazing domestique in 2002.

In 2001 Lance was something else entirely. Ullrich was in great shape that year and he took major time on him on every MTF and ITT.

2003 was an abnormal edition for that era. I don't believe that Ullrich was in the same shape as 2001, and as he wasn't riding for T-Mobile I don't think he had as much support, but he gained in confidence with Lance being quite a bit off his A game. AX3-Domaines was very exciting for many of us; for just a moment it looked like a dethroning was about to happen....

But I don't believe in miracles.

 

[gregrowlerson]

By the way, is Forever The Best suggesting that Lance is forever the best??

 

[Alexandre B.]

Armstrong wasn’t weak in 2003 relative to his performances. The competition he faced was stronger, though.

Luz Ardiden is the last time he finished well first and alone in a regular high mountain stage.

 

[RedheadDane]

The threads aim is to ask random questions about sport. This can also be moved into the clinic if mods want.

Or... we could do our best to keep this clinic-free, and leave the clinicy stuff to the general doping thread, which I think serves a similar "random" purpose.

 

[hayneplane]

I like Sagan 2012 especially his Tour de Suisse and Tour de France. Much preferred watching him duke it out with the climbers than being wasted in entertainment terms riding heavier to compete in the bunch sprints.

Not his most accomplished year overall but a lot of fun.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

This is the thread you need - the all-purpose doping-no-object, what-happened-on-the-road-only discussion. There, the 2004 Lance was chosen I believe.

 

[Forever The Best]

Watching more from the 2003 Tour highlights, I've come to the conclusion that Vino is amazing.
Armstrong was pretty lucky in Luz Ardiden IMO, the crash gave him a huge adrenaline boost and broke Ullrich's rhythm.

I can see this thread surviving for a long time here

From memory, Lance was stronger in 2002 than 2004. Maybe in 2004 his team was stronger. Azevedo was a beast in the pyrenees. But then again, Heras was an amazing domestique in 2002.

In 2001 Lance was something else entirely. Ullrich was in great shape that year and he took major time on him on every MTF and ITT.

2003 was an abnormal edition for that era. I don't believe that Ullrich was in the same shape as 2001, and as he wasn't riding for T-Mobile I don't think he had as much support, but he gained in confidence with Lance being quite a bit off his A game. AX3-Domaines was very exciting for many of us; for just a moment it looked like a dethroning was about to happen....

But I don't believe in miracles.

I agree 2001 Ullrich was stronger than 2003. But IMO he was never as strong as 1997.

 

[Forever The Best]

Why did Saxo Bank and Euskaltel-Euskadi give such a big effort in chasing Andy Schleck in Tdf 2011 stage 18 when Contador and Sanchez both had awful days? Or did they forget to eat or something?

 

[Anderis]

How the hell did Guillaume Martin finish 6th in PCS ranking in 2020? Rode 2 GTs, no stage wins or top10 GC. The only major race he finished in the top10 was the Dauphine and it's not like he made up for it in smaller races because he only finished 3 small classics and 0 small stage races inside top5, no wins or 2nd places except one Vuelta stage.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

How the hell did Guillaume Martin finish 6th in PCS ranking in 2020? Rode 2 GTs, no stage wins or top10 GC. The only major race he finished in the top10 was the Dauphine and it's not like he made up for it in smaller races because he only finished 3 small classics and 0 small stage races inside top5, no wins or 2nd places except one Vuelta stage.

2020 was not a very typical year...

 

[Anderis]

2020 was not a very typical year...

It wasn't but it still blows my mind how Martin could've finished 6th in PCS ranking with these results. Like he basically did nothing except for finishing 3rd in the Dauphine and it feels that way more than 5 riders should've been able to outscore what he did even taking a reduced calendar into consideration.

 

[Potomac]

Here's his tally:

#	Date	Result	Race	Points
1	2020-09-20	11	Tour de France | General classification	190
2	2020-08-16	3	Critérium du Dauphiné | General classification	160
3	2020-11-08	14	La Vuelta ciclista a España | General classification	110
4	2020-11-08	1	La Vuelta ciclista a España | Mountains classification	80
5	2020-02-29	3	Faun-Ardèche Classic	60
6	2020-02-02	7	Vuelta a San Juan Internacional | General classification	55
7	2020-03-15	12	Paris - Nice | General classification	55
8	2020-09-27	13	World Championships ME - Road Race	55
9	2020-03-01	4	Royal Bernard Drôme Classic	50
10	2020-09-01	3	Tour de France | Stage 4	50
11	2020-10-24	2	La Vuelta ciclista a España | Stage 5	50
12	2020-08-06	3	Mont Ventoux Dénivelé Challenge	40
13	2020-10-04	14	Liège-Bastogne-Liège	34
14	2020-09-06	7	Tour de France | Stage 9	22
15	2020-08-09	8	Tour de l'Ain | General classification	18
16	2020-10-27	5	La Vuelta ciclista a España | Stage 7	18
17	2020-10-31	5	La Vuelta ciclista a España | Stage 11	18
18	2020-10-25	6	La Vuelta ciclista a España | Stage 6	15
19	2020-08-13	4	Critérium du Dauphiné | Stage 2	13
20	2020-10-30	7	La Vuelta ciclista a España | Stage 10	12
21	2020-11-07	7	La Vuelta ciclista a España | Stage 17	12
22	2020-08-30	11	Tour de France | Stage 2	8
23	2020-01-31	4	Vuelta a San Juan Internacional | Stage 5	7
24	2020-08-09	4	Tour de l'Ain | Stage 3	5
25	2020-03-14	7	Paris - Nice | Stage 7	4
26	2020-08-14	7	Critérium du Dauphiné | Stage 3	4
27	2020-11-06	12	La Vuelta ciclista a España | Stage 16	4
28	2020-03-13	8	Paris - Nice | Stage 6	3
29	2020-08-16	8	Critérium du Dauphiné | Stage 5	3
30	2020-08-07	7	Tour de l'Ain | Stage 1	2
31	2020-09-13	14	Tour de France | Stage 15	2
32	2020-09-16	14	Tour de France | Stage 17	2
33	2020-10-22	14	La Vuelta ciclista a España | Stage 3	2
34	2020-10-28	14	La Vuelta ciclista a España | Stage 8	2
35	2020-08-12	10	Critérium du Dauphiné | Stage 1	1
36	2020-09-05	15	Tour de France | Stage 8	1
				1167

 

[Potomac]

50 points that year could move you up or down quite a few spots.

#	Rider	Team	Points
1	ROGLIČ Primož	Team Jumbo-Visma	2431
2	POGAČAR Tadej	UAE Team Emirates	2063
3	VAN AERT Wout	Team Jumbo-Visma	1834
4	FUGLSANG Jakob	Astana Pro Team	1329
5	ULISSI Diego	UAE Team Emirates	1181
6	MARTIN Guillaume	Cofidis	1165
7	DÉMARE Arnaud	Groupama - FDJ	1147
8	VAN DER POEL Mathieu	Alpecin - Fenix	1136
9	PORTE Richie	Trek - Segafredo	1135
10	ALAPHILIPPE Julian	Deceuninck - Quick Step	1119
11	CARAPAZ Richard	INEOS Grenadiers	1113
12	BENNETT Sam	Deceuninck - Quick Step	1086
13	VLASOV Aleksandr	Astana Pro Team	1023
14	ACKERMANN Pascal	BORA - hansgrohe	964
15	KELDERMAN Wilco	Team Sunweb	942
16	SCHACHMANN Maximilian	BORA - hansgrohe	923
17	SAGAN Peter	BORA - hansgrohe	899
18	EVENEPOEL Remco	Deceuninck - Quick Step	898
19	HIRSCHI Marc	Team Sunweb	891

 

[Potomac]

You might think winning the Giro would send you near the top...

#	Date	Result	Race	Points
1	2020-10-25	1	Giro d'Italia | General classification	400
2	2020-02-09	3	Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana | General classification	90
3	2020-10-18	1	Giro d'Italia | Stage 15	80
4	2020-10-24	1	Giro d'Italia | Stage 20	80
5	2020-10-22	2	Giro d'Italia | Stage 18	50
6	2020-10-16	4	Giro d'Italia | Stage 13	25
7	2020-10-25	2	Giro d'Italia | Mountains classification	20
8	2020-10-11	6	Giro d'Italia | Stage 9	15
9	2020-02-08	3	Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana | Stage 4	12
10	2020-10-15	10	Giro d'Italia | Stage 12	6
11	2020-09-14	30	Tirreno-Adriatico | General classification	5
12	2020-10-13	11	Giro d'Italia | Stage 10	5
13	2020-10-21	11	Giro d'Italia | Stage 17	5
14	2020-10-17	13	Giro d'Italia | Stage 14 (ITT)	3
15	2020-10-25	13	Giro d'Italia | Stage 21 (ITT)	3
				799

That's for Gheogheghan Hharht

 

[Squire]

11th in the Tour worth almost half the points you get for a Giro win. Incredible stuff. That's your explanation for Martin.

 

[Anderis]

11th in the Tour worth almost half the points you get for a Giro win. Incredible stuff. That's your explanation for Martin.

That's not the full explanation. There were still 10 guys who scored more points out of the Tour de France GC alone. And where are all the riders who scored 1st's and 2nd's in all of those races Martin finished 3rd or 14th? Guess due to covid these results must have been very evenly spread among a large number of riders who did little in other races...

 

[ingsve]

How the hell did Guillaume Martin finish 6th in PCS ranking in 2020? Rode 2 GTs, no stage wins or top10 GC. The only major race he finished in the top10 was the Dauphine and it's not like he made up for it in smaller races because he only finished 3 small classics and 0 small stage races inside top5, no wins or 2nd places except one Vuelta stage.

Part of it was that he happened to do well in events where PCS points are heavily weighted. He was for example 12th in CQrankings and 18th in the UCI WT ranking the same year.

Another factor is that he was actually one of the most active riders. He was 6th in race days and 7th in total KMs for the year so that helps a lot in a year where so many people had rather short seasons.