Remco Evenepoel

[AmRacer]

Good luck calculating the impact of EPO use vs better bikes, tires, nutrition and more importantly, the lower weight of the riders now.
Do you have a method to calculate the impact of each of those factors, let alone all of them?

And that logic can be applied on every riders performance then.

 

[canina82]

Explain the 12,5 seconds per km on Alpe d'Huez before lecturing me on double standards.

Being way better than Remco talent wise and ability to climb.

 

[MountainGoatW]

Being way better than Remco talent wise and ability to climb.

How on earth do you get the talent that way around? I am asking seriously? Remco was considered generational almost instantly after starting cycling, the other one only started showing results after hooking up with some infamous figures. Look it up if you don't trust me, facts can't be debated.

 

[canina82]

How on earth do you get the talent that way around? I am asking seriously? Remco was considered generational almost instantly after starting cycling, the other one only started showing results after hooking up with some infamous figures. Look it up if you don't trust me, facts can't be debated.

That argument Remco is generational and Pogacar not is getting old. Both started their professional career at the same time and Pogacar beats Remco in every single metric (except TTs) since ever. In fact, most big wins Remco got in his career were conquered because Pogacar was absent. We saw how much better Pogacar is compared to Remco on Montmarte (stage 21 TdF 2026), we see how much better he is than Remco on LBL for multiple times, the Vuelta is a fluke and of course conquered because Pogacar, Vingegaard weren't there.

So I firmly believe Remco would be a 0x monument winner, a 0x GT winner, a 0x ORR champion (he also needs to be grateful to WVA. Something he isn't for sure because he doesn't have any respect for anyone other than him like we saw multiple times in his career. E.g. 2025 LBL, 2026 TdF with Lipo and his soigneur on stage 20, 2025 WC, 2024 ORR where he screams like a baby with his mechanic when he had a puncture. And there are more examples for sure.

 

[KoopaCycling]

That argument Remco is generational and Pogacar not is getting old. Both started their professional career at the same time and Pogacar beats Remco in every single metric (except TTs) since ever. In fact, most big wins Remco got in his career were conquered because Pogacar was absent. We saw how much better Pogacar is compared to Remco on Montmarte (stage 21 TdF 2026), we see how much better he is than Remco on LBL for multiple times, the Vuelta is a fluke and of course conquered because Pogacar, Vingegaard weren't there.

So I firmly believe Remco would be a 0x monument winner, a 0x GT winner, a 0x ORR champion (he also needs to be grateful to WVA. Something he isn't for sure because he doesn't have any respect for anyone other than him like we saw multiple times in his career. E.g. 2025 LBL, 2026 TdF with Lipo and his soigneur on stage 20, 2025 WC, 2024 ORR where he screams like a baby with his mechanic when he had a puncture. And there are more examples for sure.

He's implying that remco showed his talent immediately from the moment he picked up a bike and started racing whereas Pogacar only become generational after joining UAE and what they had to offer. Mind you i heard anecdotes off Pogacar finishing 20th on a crap bike and riders being impressed by how good of a result he rode despite that. How much that was retroactive hyperbole i have no idea. As this was told after pogacar became Pogacar. In any case, you are entirely missing his point in your response during the first paragraph. I disagree with his point for various reasons, but you ain't adressing it as you think you are.

second paragraph is entirely subjective and imo speaks more about your (somewhat petty) thoughts than they reflect on remco.

 

[canina82]

He's implying that remco showed his talent immediately from the moment he picked up a bike and started racing whereas Pogacar only become generational after joining UAE and what they had to offer. Mind you i heard anecdotes off Pogacar finishing 20th on a crap bike and riders being impressed by how good of a result he rode despite that. How much that was retroactive hyperbole i have no idea. As this was told after pogacar became Pogacar. In any case, you are entirely missing his point in your response during the first paragraph. I disagree with his point for various reasons, but you ain't adressing it as you think you are.

second paragraph is entirely subjective and imo speaks more about your (somewhat petty) thoughts than they reflect on remco.

A lot of supposed "generational riders" like Hirschi, Ayuso, McNulty, Torres were/are in UAE and didn't fulfill their early expectations. Guess what, they "grew" in UAE. Pogacar won Tour de L'Avenir at 19 years old alone (Slovenia is a small nation) and it's notorious his training and nutrition were far from professional when he was in a slovenian team compared to spanish, belgian, french teams where they optimise their riders very early. Yes, Remco was probably the best young rider ever but implying Pogacar wasn't a generational rider because he didn't get notorious results at 16-18 years old is beyond stupid/silly.
I follow Remco since ever and I also remember him losing to Vacek (a retired rider now) in some mountain stages.

 

[KoopaCycling]

Sure, like youth racing ain't the same as pro, and learning the trade and all that, difference in growth, ...
Other reasons possible, aside from lack of good material on why Pogacar did not stood out as much before UAE.

 

[KoopaCycling]

A lot of supposed "generational riders" like Hirschi, Ayuso, McNulty, Torres were/are in UAE and didn't fulfill their early expectations. Guess what, they "grew" in UAE. Pogacar won Tour de L'Avenir at 19 years old alone (Slovenia is a small nation) and it's notorious his training and nutrition were far from professional when he was in a slovenian team compared to spanish, belgian, french teams where they optimise their riders very early. Yes, Remco was probably the best young rider ever but implying Pogacar wasn't a generational rider because he didn't get notorious results at 16-18 years old is beyond stupid/silly.
I follow Remco since ever and I also remember him losing to Vacek (a retired rider now) in some mountain stages.

yes i agree. as is i mentioned in my post on that.
I disagree on that you actually adressed the point that was being raised in your previous post.
You have addressed it more now.

Not being petty, i genuinely felt like you missed the point in your answer.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Besides Tour d L'Avenir victory Pogacar was 5th and 4th in the ToS at the age of 18-19 riding for some local team (without good "resources"). Those ToS were pro races with decent field, not junior races.

 

[KoopaCycling]

yeah, hard not to get noticed by big teams after avenir win.
Still remco results at youth immediately stood out. Whereas Pogacar went a tiny bit more under the radar. Until his breakout.

 

[canina82]

yes i agree. as is i mentioned in my post on that.
I disagree on that you actually adressed the point that was being raised in your previous post.
You have addressed it more now.

Not being petty, i genuinely felt like you missed the point in your answer.

It was you who missed the point actually. You just need to see his posts about Pogacar and you will see his point is clearly around Pogacar not being a talented rider and he is only a relevant rider because of UAE. He already implied this multiple times so no, I didn't miss the point.

 

[MountainGoatW]

That argument Remco is generational and Pogacar not is getting old. Both started their professional career at the same time and Pogacar beats Remco in every single metric (except TTs) since ever. In fact, most big wins Remco got in his career were conquered because Pogacar was absent. We saw how much better Pogacar is compared to Remco on Montmarte (stage 21 TdF 2026), we see how much better he is than Remco on LBL for multiple times, the Vuelta is a fluke and of course conquered because Pogacar, Vingegaard weren't there.

So I firmly believe Remco would be a 0x monument winner, a 0x GT winner, a 0x ORR champion (he also needs to be grateful to WVA. Something he isn't for sure because he doesn't have any respect for anyone other than him like we saw multiple times in his career. E.g. 2025 LBL, 2026 TdF with Lipo and his soigneur on stage 20, 2025 WC, 2024 ORR where he screams like a baby with his mechanic when he had a puncture. And there are more examples for sure.

Oh my god the copium. Did you even read what i wrote. You are now talking about professional careers and after certain some one was already on the Gianetti/UAE juice. In any sport in general you spot the talent on juniors and then you either make it or not in the professional ranks. Pog was basically quite average all the way until joining forces with the biggest cheaters of this millenium. No but that doesn't mean anything, cause of the cope. I give up.

BTW. That L'Avenir is the most used argument of pogs talent, but he was already in the Gianetti train even thou finishing the season still in the old team. Someone wins L'Avenir every year, usually with stage wins too. How do all the cope/defender people feel about the craziest jump ever in performance since 23/24, surely that was natural too among the other super talents.

 

[MountainGoatW]

It was you who missed the point actually. You just need to see his posts about Pogacar and you will see his point is clearly around Pogacar not being a talented rider and he is only a relevant rider because of UAE. He already implied this multiple times so no, I didn't miss the point.

Pog is surely talented, his just not this hugely more gifted than any other rider ever. On a very professional and specialised field. That is the whole point, I only got annoyed when the super fake pog apperead after 23/24 winter, even thou PDBF TT was also extremely suspect with the creator of Ricco smiling behind.

Edit. I didn't even hate pog specially, it is the team and people behind it. I used to like the aggressive riding and attacking style. Then 23/24 happened and they have been in full *** mode for 2,5 years now. Not buying a single thing about it.

 

[canina82]

Oh my god the copium. Did you even read what i wrote. You are now talking about professional careers and after certain some one was already on the Gianetti/UAE juice. In any sport in general you spot the talent on juniors and then you either make it or not in the professional ranks. Pog was basically quite average all the way until joining forces with the biggest cheaters of this millenium. No but that doesn't mean anything, cause of the cope. I give up.

BTW. That L'Avenir is the most used argument of pogs talent, but he was already in the Gianetti train even thou finishing the season still in the old team. Someone wins L'Avenir every year, usually with stage wins too. How do all the cope/defender people feel about the craziest jump ever in performance since 23/24, surely that was natural too among the other super talents.

"The copium". Some words later you are saying he made the biggest jump ever in performance between 2023-2024. This is supported by which evidence? Your "gut feeling"? All this to justify your narrative?
Why was this jump bigger than Vingegaard between 2021-2022? Or Seixas in 2026? Or Froome in 2012? Or Purito in 2012?
There are plenty examples of riders making significant improvements in one year.

 

[MountainGoatW]

"The copium". Some words later you are saying he made the biggest jump ever in performance between 2023-2024. This is supported by which evidence? Your "gut feeling"? All this to justify your narrative?
Why was this jump bigger than Vingegaard between 2021-2022? Or Seixas in 2026? Or Froome in 2012? Or Purito in 2012?
There are plenty examples of riders making significant improvements in one year.

His still on that same jump, on a different planet that any other rider has ever been. All the names you mention are specialised basically on stage racing. The one guy these days is the mountain goat and challenges the powerhouses in PR. All the names you say had suspicious performance leaps, but not to this what we have witnessed for 2,5 years now.

Edit. And yes I think Seixas(Decathlon) have found out something similar than pog&UAE. We will see the coming years.

 

[canina82]

Pog is surely talented, his just not this hugely more gifted than any other rider ever. On a very professional and specialised field. That is the whole point, I only got annoyed when the super fake pog apperead after 23/24 winter, even thou PDBF TT was also extremely suspect with the creator of Ricco smiling behind.

Edit. I didn't even have pog specially, it is the team and people behind it. I used to like the aggressive riding and attacking style. Then 23/24 happened and they have been in full *** mode for 2,5 years now. Not buying a single thing about it.

You are arguing with yourself now. No one is "buying a single thing" of UAE. But I don't understand why Ayuso didn't improve like Pogacar since he was more talented. Enough of this off topic (at least from me).

Regarding Remco, he is training with Vingegaard's former coach so he must be on the same regime (doping, nutrition, etc) and still can't climb close to aliens. Maybe the most talented ever isn't that talented...

 

[red_flanders]

"The copium". Some words later you are saying he made the biggest jump ever in performance between 2023-2024. This is supported by which evidence? Your "gut feeling"? All this to justify your narrative?
Why was this jump bigger than Vingegaard between 2021-2022? Or Seixas in 2026? Or Froome in 2012? Or Purito in 2012?
There are plenty examples of riders making significant improvements in one year.

The point, which I think is obvious despite the phrasing, is that any reasonable observer of the sport can see that Pog went from a great rider, certainly one of the best of his era, to literally the best ever rider, surpassing even what Merckx did, and is doing it without even looking like it's an effort.

No one has any way to objectively measure this, but it's also so apparent as to make one question why it's even a discussion, let alone a debate.

I certainly don't think he's alone in doing suspect things, clearly everyone crushing the times of full-program doperz is beyond suspicious, like the topic of this thread, Mr. Evenepoel.

I don't really get the seeming defensiveness of some Pog diehards. The dude is all-time. Literally. Enjoy it. It's all a circus anyway.

 

[canina82]

The point, which I think is obvious despite the phrasing, is that any reasonable observer of the sport can see that Pog went from a great rider, certainly one of the best of his era, to literally the best ever rider, surpassing even what Merckx did, and is doing it without even looking like it's an effort.

No one has any way to objectively measure this, but it's also so apparent as to make one question why it's even a discussion, let alone a debate.

I certainly don't think he's alone in doing suspect things, clearly everyone crushing the times of full-program doperz is beyond suspicious, like the topic of this thread, Mr. Evenepoel.

I don't really get the seeming defensiveness of some Pog diehards. The dude is all-time. Literally. Enjoy it. It's all a circus anyway.

And where did I disagree with that?
Edit: Does this mean he made a bigger jump in performance than Vingegaard in 2022? And let's be clear, Pogacar wasn't one of the best, he was the best rider by a decent margin already in 2023.

 

[Cookster15]

I certainly don't think he's alone in doing suspect things, clearly everyone crushing the times of full-program doperz is beyond suspicious, like the topic of this thread, Mr. Evenepoel.

Thanks for the balanced comment - that is rare in here.

Most of the debate here (the Clinic) comes back to the various fan bases and their perceptions of fair competition. Of course, Pogačar fans will defend him, and of course what Pogačar is doing is a massive outlier. However, I also think fans of other riders could try a little harder to be fair and objective. Even Lenny Martínez held Pogačar's wheel whilst Pogi was setting the fastest ascent in history, staying with him almost all the way after being caught with 2 km remaining.