Reynolds 853...repairable?

[The Gnome]

I have a steel frame Lemond Zurich that has developed a nasty crack going from headtube down around the downtube in a sort of U shape around the downtube and back up on the headtube on the other side...it's pretty significant in size ...thing has never been crashed so I am guessing it is a fatigue failure given the frame is 13 years old and probably has about 40 to 50 thousand miles on it...a buddy of mine is a very good welder, works on airplanes ect...any opinions or tips on whether 853 steel can be welded or should I be thinking of retiring this frame? I love the bike and would love to save it...

 

[twothirds]

Not trying to sound disrespectful, but if he's a good welder then he should be able to look up the steel and it's metallurgical properties and see if the repair can be made. I'm just going on the assumption that someone who welds for a living would be able to make that call.

 

[Parera]

I thought "Steel is real" and lasts for 30 years?

 

[The Gnome]

Not trying to sound disrespectful, but if he's a good welder then he should be able to look up the steel and it's metallurgical properties and see if the repair can be made. I'm just going on the assumption that someone who welds for a living would be able to make that call.

true enough and I will talk to him about that...was just curious as there are few experts out here via bikes if they knew much about 853 and repairs...when I google it I get conflicting answers...some say no problem and others say no way via 853...I wrote reynolds as well...no response yet...

as for the steel is real comment I have realized this was pretty much my fault...last year I wanted to use a thomson stem I had...so took out the old quill stem I had in there and bought one of those stem adapters you can then put a newer stem on...the straight stem theadless adapters I mean...upon pulling it out I realize that it is, was far longer than my original quill stem and went right down to the place I found the crack...right down to where the head meets the downtube...so upon tightening I put torque where it shouldn't be...then rode a ton of miles on it all year and put a massive amount of torque exactly where it aint supposed to be...I am a truly a total dumb a## for this and if this frame is gone it is my fault...I feel awful about it...

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

It's probably repairable, but you're looking at a 2 tube replacement and a repaint. That's expensive! I don't know that it's worth the trouble having this one repaired, the crack sounds pretty significant in that it's migrated across welds from head to down tube.
Yikes!

I'd probably start looking for a replacement, lots of great new 853 bikes out there from Raleigh, Jamis, Gunnar, to name a few.

 

[The Gnome]

thanks G....you don't think a weld could ever cover that damage? I will of course put the old quill stem back in and take the heat off area after repair...but have my doubts it will ever be ok...I really Fu##ed up ...so no weld via going from head to down without replacing tubes you think? not even worth trying? weld wont cost me anything as it is a friend...but I figure I have killed this frame...? I know as well I can buy another zurich frame used for prolly 400 or so...but still, this one has gotten me thru alot of moments...am pretty partial to it...and maybe just have a hard time dealing with the fact I screwed a perfectly good frame up via my own ignorance...

F**K...

 

[Fiemme]

true enough and I will talk to him about that...was just curious as there are few experts out here via bikes if they knew much about 853 and repairs...when I google it I get conflicting answers...some say no problem and others say no way via 853...I wrote reynolds as well...no response yet...

as for the steel is real comment I have realized this was pretty much my fault...last year I wanted to use a thomson stem I had...so took out the old quill stem I had in there and bought one of those stem adapters you can then put a newer stem on...the straight stem theadless adapters I mean...upon pulling it out I realize that it is, was far longer than my original quill stem and went right down to the place I found the crack...right down to where the head meets the downtube...so upon tightening I put torque where it shouldn't be...then rode a ton of miles on it all year and put a massive amount of torque exactly where it aint supposed to be...I am a truly a total dumb a## for this and if this frame is gone it is my fault...I feel awful about it...

I don't think the quill stem caused the damage. If anything this would have damaged the fork. Sounds like metal fatigue. The location of this crack is common on steel frames, as it is the most stessed parts of the frame. Do not weld the crack. The metal has crack due to work hardening of the steel. If you try and weld the crack the heat and tempering of the metal during the welding process will cause it to crack else where.
As GM stated a new downtube and headtube is required.
If you liked the frame and the geometry is good get it repaired. Even if the geometry is not right for you get it adjusted when you repair it. It will probably last another 40-50k miles or 13years.
As for Steel is real how many carbon frames are there out there that are 13years old with 40-50k of miles in them, and can they be repaired as easily as a steel frame.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

A proper frame builder could do the repair, but you have to weigh your options. Do you dump a bunch of money into a repair and repaint, or spend a little extra and start fresh with a brand new 853 whatever that will be a better build than the LeMond no matter who you choose? I say live the bummer free life and just get a new frame, but do a proper cremation of the LeMond at a recycling facility. I understand nostalgia, otherwise I wouldn't have the stash of old crap that I do, but there's a time to just let go and start fresh, especially for an everyday bike, which I'm assuming this one is.

 

[Benotti69]

Strip the LeMond frame and hang it on the wall

 

[The Gnome]

yep...thanks for all the advice...you guys are right...time to just let go and get a new frame...

 

[Master50]

I don't think the quill stem caused the damage. If anything this would have damaged the fork. Sounds like metal fatigue. The location of this crack is common on steel frames, as it is the most stessed parts of the frame. Do not weld the crack. The metal has crack due to work hardening of the steel. If you try and weld the crack the heat and tempering of the metal during the welding process will cause it to crack else where.
As GM stated a new downtube and headtube is required.
If you liked the frame and the geometry is good get it repaired. Even if the geometry is not right for you get it adjusted when you repair it. It will probably last another 40-50k miles or 13years.
As for Steel is real how many carbon frames are there out there that are 13years old with 40-50k of miles in them, and can they be repaired as easily as a steel frame.

Currently Calfee fixes this kind of damage all the time. Often even cheaper than steel.
Carbon fiber can be easier to repair and you won't get burned either.

 

[Master50]

true enough and I will talk to him about that...was just curious as there are few experts out here via bikes if they knew much about 853 and repairs...when I google it I get conflicting answers...some say no problem and others say no way via 853...I wrote reynolds as well...no response yet...

as for the steel is real comment I have realized this was pretty much my fault...last year I wanted to use a thomson stem I had...so took out the old quill stem I had in there and bought one of those stem adapters you can then put a newer stem on...the straight stem theadless adapters I mean...upon pulling it out I realize that it is, was far longer than my original quill stem and went right down to the place I found the crack...right down to where the head meets the downtube...so upon tightening I put torque where it shouldn't be...then rode a ton of miles on it all year and put a massive amount of torque exactly where it aint supposed to be...I am a truly a total dumb a## for this and if this frame is gone it is my fault...I feel awful about it...

There is no reason this should cause this damage. That adaptor is the same as a stem to the fork tube and the lever is the same. I have done the same on a Colnago with no such issue or concern. I think it is just coincidence and not the cause.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Currently Calfee fixes this kind of damage all the time. Often even cheaper than steel.
Carbon fiber can be easier to repair and you won't get burned either.

Not sure Calfee is the greatest example of carbon repair, or even paint. Have you seen the Tarmac frame repair issue thread? Bustedknuckle used to carry Calfee then dumped them because of consistent quality control issues. I have a friend who gets destroyed carbon frames and wheels free from shops and repairs them at home, and quite effectively. He's been doing it for a few years now and is winning races on what most people consider garbage. Hasn't re-broke anything yet. He even made his own carbon shelled saddle that makes those POS carbon DASH saddles look like a 4 year old crafted them.

There is no reason this should cause this damage. That adaptor is the same as a stem to the fork tube and the lever is the same. I have done the same on a Colnago with no such issue or concern. I think it is just coincidence and not the cause.

Fiemme already established that the stem adapter wasn't the problem. There's no way it was the cause because all of the force from the adapter is inside the steerer tube of the fork, that pressure inside the steerer tube could not effect the head or down tube where the crack occurred. Even with a longish adapter that may go as far down as the lower part of the headset, you can't apply enough pressure to expand any part of the fork to weaken the frame tubes. If that was the case, the lower head set bearings would bind up well before a crack appeared.

FYI, I worked at a Trek dealer when LeMond bikes occupied quite a bit of showroom space with Wrek. In true form just like a Wrek, there were always a handful of warranty issues every year like this with the LeMonds as well.

 

[avanti]

I very much doubt that the crack is due to metal fatigue.
More likely it was a faulty weld due to contamination or an inclusion so a crack grew along a max stress area. If your 853 is butted tubing and the crack extends to the non-butted zone then repair is not a good idea (and neither is rewelding for that matter since 853 hardened by air cooling after the initial weld).
Replacing tubes are not practical either since they attach to previously welded areas.

That is why I prefer lugged steel frames because it is possible to replace tubes.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

.........That is why I prefer lugged steel frames because it is possible to replace tubes.

I TOTALLY agree, and because lugs on a steel bike are SO DAMN SEXY!!!

May I present the Raleigh International, Fully lugged 853, and possibly The Gnomes next bike....

 

[Fiemme]

I TOTALLY agree, and because lugs on a steel bike are SO DAMN SEXY!!!

May I present the Raleigh International, Fully lugged 853, and possibly The Gnomes next bike....

Nice to see that they are still using down tube bosses.
Do Raleigh do those in Custom Geometry?

Avanti I agree a lugged frame is much more dependable and the repair of a TIG welded frame does pose issues with over heating of previously welded tubes. The crack may have developed due to cold setting. As the tube is billeted from one piece, there is no allowance for the stress in the tube to 'relieve' itself. So the tube itself starts to stretch and 'relieve' at the point of least resistance. Which with 853 is the point where the Air Hardening finishes and the normalised part of the tube begins. This what I meant by Metal Fatigue. The good thing about Lugged frames is that some stress is slightly relieved in the lug itself and the brazing attaching the tube to the lug, as the brazing is a softer material than the steel itself. Sometimes with Lugged frames cracking occurs in the brazing itself. Which makes a repair a whole lot easier.

Gnome Take GM's advice let it go, have a wake, move on and buy that Raleigh, you'll surely get another 13years of joy out of it. One word of warning, you will need to modifiy the nut slightly on the rear brake, that Brake Bridge is slightly undersized and does not allow the nut on the brake to tighten correctly. You'll need to take about 1mm off the length of the nut. I know this from experience, so unless the casting mold has been changed check the rear brakes first. See if you can get it with Campag equipment it will look nicer.

 

[The Gnome]

wow, nice frame...didn't realize they were still doing lugged frames at raleigh...def. will check it out...I appreciate all the info and advice, especially concerning why the thing cracked...sounds like it wasn't just a bone headed move on my part which makes me feel a lil better...I guess as well that I should just see this via I got 13 years and a good amount of miles outta a frame that wasn't the greatest to begin with...this was the second frame I had break this year...the other was a lemond ti/carbon...so not a good year. After arguing with wreck about the ti/carbon frame and warranty I am not even going to ask them over the zurich...total waste of time. Down to one bike, a lugged Merckx mxleader that I tend to baby way too much...not sure why, but being down to one bike causes anxiety tho one bike should be fine for most folks really...

a local guy offered me a soma smoothie, with tange prestige tubes, frame he bought a few years ago, but never built up...200 bucks with fork...I realize it prolly isnt a great frame...but any opinions on it? Decent or just total crap? I would at least have a second bike to run in bad weather and it would give me some time to work on getting a good lugged steel frame down the line when finances might be better...

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Currently Calfee fixes this kind of damage all the time. Often even cheaper than steel.
Carbon fiber can be easier to repair and you won't get burned either.

Unless you are Duckula I guess..re-Tarmac repair issues a few subjects down.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

wow, nice frame...didn't realize they were still doing lugged frames at raleigh...def. will check it out...I appreciate all the info and advice, especially concerning why the thing cracked...sounds like it wasn't just a bone headed move on my part which makes me feel a lil better...I guess as well that I should just see this via I got 13 years and a good amount of miles outta a frame that wasn't the greatest to begin with...this was the second frame I had break this year...the other was a lemond ti/carbon...so not a good year. After arguing with wreck about the ti/carbon frame and warranty I am not even going to ask them over the zurich...total waste of time. Down to one bike, a lugged Merckx mxleader that I tend to baby way too much...not sure why, but being down to one bike causes anxiety tho one bike should be fine for most folks really...

a local guy offered me a soma smoothie, with tange prestige tubes, frame he bought a few years ago, but never built up...200 bucks with fork...I realize it prolly isnt a great frame...but any opinions on it? Decent or just total crap? I would at least have a second bike to run in bad weather and it would give me some time to work on getting a good lugged steel frame down the line when finances might be better...

Soma Smoothie's are nice. Nice bike specific tubeset(unlike the Surly roll cage steel), just made in Asia so not the big $ of a US or Euro made frame.

If it fits ya, $200 is a GREAT price.

 

[kuoirad]

Soma Smoothie's are nice. Nice bike specific tubeset(unlike the Surly roll cage steel), just made in Asia so not the big $ of a US or Euro made frame.

If it fits ya, $200 is a GREAT price.

If the OP will pardon the off-topic (but tangential) question - BK, do you like Soma's frames in general? If I wanted to go steel disc, a Double Cross Disc looks like one of the better/less expensive ways to go to disc and keep rack/fender bosses like my Pake C'Mute currently has...much cheaper than going to a Gunnar FastLane.

 

[winkybiker]

true enough and I will talk to him about that...was just curious as there are few experts out here via bikes if they knew much about 853 and repairs...when I google it I get conflicting answers...some say no problem and others say no way via 853...I wrote reynolds as well...no response yet...

as for the steel is real comment I have realized this was pretty much my fault...last year I wanted to use a thomson stem I had...so took out the old quill stem I had in there and bought one of those stem adapters you can then put a newer stem on...the straight stem theadless adapters I mean...upon pulling it out I realize that it is, was far longer than my original quill stem and went right down to the place I found the crack...right down to where the head meets the downtube...so upon tightening I put torque where it shouldn't be...then rode a ton of miles on it all year and put a massive amount of torque exactly where it aint supposed to be...I am a truly a total dumb a## for this and if this frame is gone it is my fault...I feel awful about it...

Using a long stem adapter had nothing to do with the failure. The adapter clamps into the steerer tube and can't pass any bad stresses to the head tube. It may have altered the way the steer flexed under load a little, but I still can't see that affecting the head tube in any way.

No, your bike is just worn out. Steel will eventually fail from fatigue. I wouldn't think abut a repair at all. When a part of your frame is metallurgically "tired", fatigue and cracking problems elsewhere may not be far behind. Retire it.

 

[The Gnome]

well, the update if anyone is following or particularly cares...picked up a used lugged Serotta Colorado lt frame that is in great condition for a good price (450 bucks)...perfect fit and it's in great shape...just didn't have the finances to go for a new steel lugged frame sorry to say...and will do a build over winter with the duraace gruppo from the lemond I now have torn apart...

Just for kicks my buddy and I did in fact tig weld the lemond, for the price of how much beer we could down while in his shop with all those nice explosive things round...I always wanted a bike just to put on my K kinetic trainer and keep there rather than switching bikes on and off it as I have always done...figure the weld might be good enough to withstand the trainer or if it isnt then no big deal, no big crash anyhow...threw an old back fulcrum 7 speed wheel and campy rear der., along with a downtube shifter on it for the minimal...as I am partial to the frame, the good memories I had on it, and also having a trainer bike just set up going nowhere, maybe it will spur me on to hit the trainer more when I can.

appreciate all the feedback guys...

 

[Fiemme]

Nice to see you didn't bury the Lemond. Hope you get another 13 years of life out of the serotta.
By the way you need to campy on it not shimano. Maybe your still a bit hung over. We'll forgive you.

 

[The Gnome]

Nice to see you didn't bury the Lemond. Hope you get another 13 years of life out of the serotta.
By the way you need to campy on it not shimano. Maybe your still a bit hung over. We'll forgive you.

lol...well, I would love to Campy the thing...my Merckx Leader is all campy record...but have to make do with what I have on hand...which is Dura...I start doing another retro rebuild with campy I am gonna need a second job...I am hardly buying food for the next few weeks as it is via the Serotta...and would rather have time to actually ride...so shimano it is...I love Campy stuff and prefer it, but really can't find much fault either with all the shimano stuff I have used over the years...pretty reliable...

 

[runninboy]

By the way you need to campy on it not shimano. Maybe your still a bit hung over. We'll forgive you.

+1

to the OP make sure your repaired frame never gets back into circulation. I had a friend who had a similar repair done, loaned the frame to a friend for his windtrainer and eventually,it got sold. My friend tried to track it down but was unable to get it back. He found out it changed hands several times and got repainted by an unscrupulous individual who misrepresented the bike when he sold it to an unsuspecting customer.