Rider substitutions in stage races

[Lurkerman]

Unzué floated the idea that we could try and allow rider substitutions in the grand tours. Do you like this idea? And, more interestingly, how could it be implemented? Since clearly there are some nonsensical ways that one could try to do this.

 

[Lurkerman]

These are my best suggestions for a substitution format:

• Of course, a rider ‘A’ can abandon the race during or after a stage. On the next stage, the team can then line up a new rider ‘B’ who replaces ‘A’.
  
  
• There are no rules about what is a valid reason for substituting ‘B’ for ‘A’ - it could for tactical reasons, or due to ‘A’ crashing out, OTL’ing, etc.
  
  
• If a rider has abandoned the race, he can’t re-enter the race. So Visma can wait until the first mountain stage before they substitute Kuss into the race. However, if they also want Kuss on the next mountain stage, he has to also ride all the stages that are in-between the two.
  
  
• If a rider did not start stage 1 but was only later substituted into the race, he’s a pure domestique. He has no time in GC, can’t win a stage, and can’t score KOM points, UCI points, etc. So, for example, the winner of a stage is the first rider to cross the finish line who has been in the race since stage 1, no matter how many pure domestiques cross the line before him.
  
  
• We need to make sure that pure domestiques are recognizable on TV. My suggestion is that whilst each wears his normal team jersey, they are all forced to wear the same, unmistakably ugly helmet. Their back numbers can also be a different, ugly color.

In short, you need to know who your captains are, so you can line them up on day one. But they can then have different sets of domestiques throughout the race.

I think that the most interesting thing about this format would be that it could allow the races to experiment with team sizes. It has been speculated if smaller teams, of for example 5 riders only, could lead to more open racing. One rejoinder is that the smaller the teams, the more critical abandons become. This should make up for at least some of that. I, for one, would find it fun enough to see four daisy-fresh domestiques try and drag their knackered teammate, who has raced since the beginning, around in the third week to try and secure his KOM jersey or something.

 

[hrotha]

Races don't need fresher domestiques. It's a bad idea and Unzué pees in baptismal fonts

 

[yaco]

Have been a big advocate for one rider substitution ( injury ) for the first nine stages. There is nothing more frustrating that a rider goes out in stage one or two, especially if its caused by spectators. Read Umi Umi case.

 

[CyclistAbi]

No.

 

[scribers]

This would feel perfectly normal if this had always been the rule

 

[nightowl]

This is a bad idea that would only give richer teams an even bigger advantage than they already have by being able to substitute in domestiques whenever they want. That and it completely negates the main challenge of a grand tour which is holding your form (as an individual and as a team) over 3 weeks.

 

[yaco]

No.

What. You bang on about Safety and yet you want injured riders to continue ina GT.

 

[CyclistAbi]

What. You bang on about Safety and yet you want injured riders to continue ina GT.

This is part of the problem, people trying to sell some changes or measures taken as safety related. On where in reality there is no even remote link to increased rider safety involved. From safety point of view what would most likely happen is even more riders would get injured per GT.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I would add one little detail to spice things up. Viewers can vote who gets substituted. Already creating hundreds of alts to vote Pogi out on day 20 of the TDF.

 

[kingjr]

I would add one little detail to spice things up. Viewers can vote who gets substituted. Already creating hundreds of alts to vote Pogi out on day 20 of the TDF.

Next level is, viewers get to vote whether riders have to turn left or right at the next intersection.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I would add one little detail to spice things up. Viewers can vote who gets substituted. Already creating hundreds of alts to vote Pogi out on day 20 of the TDF.

Are you so sure that Pogi wouldn't win in the popularity contest either? For example Pogi is leading in the thread post count also.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Are you so sure that Pogi wouldn't win in the popularity contest either? For example Pogi is leading in the thread post count also.

With 3 guys posting the same stuff.

Next level is, viewers get to vote whether riders have to turn left or right at the next intersection.

Well, on a more serious note, i am waiting for a few decades now, to be able to switch between camera views or put together a multiscreen combo myself, so i as a viewer don't have to suffer from braindead directors.

 

[Berniece]

I would add one little detail to spice things up. Viewers can vote who gets substituted. Already creating hundreds of alts to vote Pogi out on day 20 of the TDF.

If there is a team that would buy an Indian vote/click farm it would be UAE

 

[proffate]

Let's go in the other direction. After each rest day, max team size decrements by one. So if no one in your team crashed out yet, you pick someone to send home. That way everyone who's still riding has completed all the stages, but if you lose a rider on day one your disadvantage eventually resolves.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

If there is a team that would buy an Indian vote/click farm it would be UAE

Not as funny dude.

 

[hrotha]

Let's go in the other direction. After each rest day, max team size decrements by one. So if no one in your team crashed out yet, you pick someone to send home. That way everyone who's still riding has completed all the stages, but if you lose a rider on day one your disadvantage eventually resolves.

How about this: after each stage, min team size increases by 10. Teams scramble to sign more riders in the region. Random spectators are press-ganged into the peloton. Positioning is everything

 

[Red Rick]

Is this AI bait?

 

[CyclistAbi]

I might support the offending fan being required to join the peloton, or do you reckon that would be too severe punishment?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Is this AI bait?

In this day and age everything gets feed to it.

 

[kingjr]

With 3 guys posting the same stuff.


Well, on a more serious note, i am waiting for a few decades now, to be able to switch between camera views or put together a multiscreen combo myself, so i as a viewer don't have to suffer from braindead directors.

I believe they did that a few years back with the Eurosport player; at least at the Tour they had 3 or 4 extra streams for the moto footage iirc. I assume not enough people used it to warrant the effort (whatever the effort may be).

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I believe they did that a few years back with the Eurosport player; at least at the Tour they had 3 or 4 extra streams for the moto footage iirc. I assume not enough people used it to warrant the effort (whatever the effort may be).

The effort would consist of one dude creating a bare bones app where the user can click the available streams.

 

[Sorped]

No thank you, keep Fantasy Cycling Manager a fantasy.

 

[ingsve]

• If a rider did not start stage 1 but was only later substituted into the race, he’s a pure domestique. He has no time in GC, can’t win a stage, and can’t score KOM points, UCI points, etc. So, for example, the winner of a stage is the first rider to cross the finish line who has been in the race since stage 1, no matter how many pure domestiques cross the line before him.

I think this is unnecessary. The only restriction needed is that you have to race the whole race to count for GC. Other than that I think replacement riders can still win stages and get points for polka or points jersey etc. No need to restrict that.

 

[Lurkerman]

I think this is unnecessary. The only restriction needed is that you have to race the whole race to count for GC. Other than that I think replacement riders can still win stages and get points for polka or points jersey etc. No need to restrict that.

But imagine how silly would it be to look at INEOS subbing in Ganna and Tarling for a week 3 TT because they haven't won a stage? You could give late starters a time penalty, etc., but ultimately I think my more strict suggestion is better in line with Unzué thought