Roger Clemens Trial

May 18, 2009
3,758
0
0
Don't know if one of these types of threads exist. Plus, I'm up in the Bavarian Alps right about now so I don't really care to take the time to go do a search.

Anyway, this case will be more closely resembling LA's (or whatever the hell the ultimate outcome of this is) than Bonds', since there is much more evidence and some witnesses that will testify.

Here is an article to kick things off.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/05/roger-clemens-goes-on-trial-this-week/related/

Vinton introduces us to FBI agent John Longmire, who led the investigation into Clemens. Unlike Bonds investigator Jeff Novitzky, Longmire does not seem like someone who has sought out media attention and does not see PED cases as his ticket to fame.
lol. Though I don't believe that quote is very accurate. It is not like Novitsky is holding press conferences and going on 60 minutes.
 
May 18, 2009
3,758
0
0
Glenn_Wilson said:
This story about sums up a large portion of the opinions within the MLB fans.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/solomon/7640990.html
Yep. It is OK to lie to go to war, lie in campaigns, politicians to lie. We can't have people, even non-common folk, lying to the liars in such a blatant way as Clemens did. Clemens was too crass, like LA. There are lines we must not cross unless somebody important decides it is time to move on. Imagine, Clemens will be found guilty for lying to people that lie for a living, while the rubes drink up the koolaid and do mental gymnastics trying to rationalize this all out in their binary world.

I'm glad Clemens is being prosecuted, but it points out the blatant hypocrisy in the US.
 
Jun 22, 2009
794
0
0
Glenn_Wilson said:
This story about sums up a large portion of the opinions within the MLB fans.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/solomon/7640990.html
i'm not sure it does sum up opinions. consider that it was published by the Houston Chronicle. that's equivalent to going to livestrong.com to get objective coverage of inquiries into doping at US Postal.

clemens is not well liked outside of Texas and a few other cities in which he played. the article portrays him as reticent or humble and in reality he was snapping at reporters at a golf pro am a few days ago.

many baseball fans would like to put their head back in the sand on the topic of PEDs in baseball but not because of an affection for RC.
 
May 18, 2009
3,758
0
0
lean said:
i'm not sure it does sum up opinions. consider that it was published by the Houston Chronicle. that's equivalent to going to livestrong.com to get objective coverage of inquiries into doping at US Postal.

clemens is not well liked outside of Texas and a few other cities in which he played. the article portrays him as reticent or humble and in reality he was snapping at reporters at a golf pro am a few days ago.

many baseball fans would like to put their head back in the sand on the topic of PEDs in baseball but not because of an affection for RC.
Isn't that the point? We pick and choose what is important in terms of respect for the law. If you are on "our team" or if it is too "painful" then it is OK to break the law. And, many fans such as myself roll eyes at the selectiveness of the whole process.

*** edited by mod ***
 
Jun 22, 2009
794
0
0
ChrisE said:
Yep. It is OK to lie to go to war, lie in campaigns, politicians to lie. We can't have people, even non-common folk, lying to the liars in such a blatant way as Clemens did. Clemens was too crass, like LA. There are lines we must not cross unless somebody important decides it is time to move on. Imagine, Clemens will be found guilty for lying to people that lie for a living, while the rubes drink up the koolaid and do mental gymnastics trying to rationalize this all out in their binary world.

I'm glad Clemens is being prosecuted, but it points out the blatant hypocrisy in the US.
i think it's a stretch to link going to war and RC's steroid abuse. i guess it stems from the quote below but to be honest it borders on insane...

You are allowed to lie in Congress and for Congress, but not to Congress.
classic example of moving the goalpoasts with a more favorable comparison. you can mimimize or trivialize every wrongdoing with the right comparison. when all else fails you invoke godwin's law ;) 3rd graders are capable of better rationalizations than the one's solomon puts forward here.
 
May 18, 2009
3,758
0
0
lean said:
i think it's a stretch to link going to war and RC's steroid abuse. i guess it stems from the quote below but to be honest it borders on insane...



classic example of moving the goalpoasts with a more favorable comparison. you can mimimize or trivialize every wrongdoing with the right comparison. when all else fails you invoke godwin's law ;) 3rd graders are capable of better rationalizations than the one's solomon puts forward here.
Yes it is a stretch if I was "comparing" them in terms of impact and importance to society, but of course I am not. Your goalpost comment is off the mark so stuff that strawman back in your closet.

So why is the more trivial offense the one that is prosecuted while the ones that effect more lives are marginalized?

Again, I am all for prosecuting him and admittedly this thread has taken a turn I didn't intend to after Glenn posted that article. Let's move on, but of course I cannot let you get the last word so please stop now. :D
 
Jun 22, 2009
794
0
0
ChrisE said:
Isn't that the point? We pick and choose what is important in terms of respect for the law. If you are on "our team" or if it is too "painful" then it is OK to break the law. And, many fans such as myself roll eyes at the selectiveness of the whole process.
i don't disagree with you on this point. selective ethics are silly but most of the time fans look for the quickest and most convenient way to resolve their mixed feelings with an "everyone was doing it" or "it's not a big deal compared to (fill in the blank)" without concern for a long term solution.

ChrisE said:
Here is a picture of me for your viewing pleasure, taken recently when asked about this lust for prosecuting PED use in sports vs the big picture. Enjoy.

:rolleyes:
rhetorically speaking, what is the big picture? i'd say that steriods in baseball are part of a much larger problem. the whole country has a steroid problem and looking the other way with baseball players isn't particularly helpful when attempting to resolve it.
 
May 18, 2009
3,758
0
0
lean said:
....
rhetorically speaking, what is the big picture? i'd say that steriods in baseball are part of a much larger problem. the whole country has a steroid problem and looking the other way with baseball players isn't particularly helpful when attempting to resolve it.
Thanks for the discussion.

The big picture in my mind is the rule of law applied across the board, so I think I agree with you when you refer to a much larger problem. I'm going too much into politics here, but I find it hilariously ironic that Clemens is being prosecuted for lying to Congress.

Anyway, there has been alot of debate on these and other forums on whether or not PED's are cheating. Is it cheating that RC did what others were/are doing, ie the "level playing field" defense. Was it cheating when Pettitte claimed he was doing it because of injury? Should there be legalized doping? I am against all of these things because people have a right to compete in a sport based upon their physical ability only, and they shouldn't have to cheat or put things in their body to compete.

Is it OK if the trashman rings up twice your monthly amount because his kid is sick or because the other guy is doing it? Is it OK your coworker skims books and cuts corners for a larger commission than you, while you play straight? Of course not. Sports are fantasy to the guy paying bills, because whether or not RC or LA for example took drugs has zero effect on them. These are ethical questions that are across the board, but it is out of sight/out of mind for the general public who is too shallow to have an ethical consistency in their life as a whole, especially when it comes to their heroes. The person that says RC should not be prosecuted is an idiot, and deserves to be screwed over daily like a w***e on dollar day. I just wish things were so simple.

Clemens cheated, though baseball deserves that and I believe it was a level playing field. This trial is a farce for the overall reasons I have stated in terms of the ethics of society and the govt it tolerates. Regardless, I will still watch it and I will take the justice crumbs as they are tossed our way. :cool:
 
Dec 7, 2010
8,773
3
0
lean said:
i'm not sure it does sum up opinions. consider that it was published by the Houston Chronicle. that's equivalent to going to livestrong.com to get objective coverage of inquiries into doping at US Postal.

clemens is not well liked outside of Texas and a few other cities in which he played. the article portrays him as reticent or humble and in reality he was snapping at reporters at a golf pro am a few days ago.

many baseball fans would like to put their head back in the sand on the topic of PEDs in baseball but not because of an affection for RC.
How would you know if he is liked in Texas? Do you live in Texas? Actually he is not well liked in Texas not even Houston. The way Andy P. and the Rocket left the Astros left the majority of Astro's Fans Angry with them. The rest of Texas does not like the Rocket because he was never a Texas Ranger which by the way enjoys the most fans within the state.

He is liked in NY because of the Yankees maybe? I would not know because I do not live there.

Also your comparison of the Houston Chronicle to the livestong.com is an epic fail in my opinion. The chronicle is a fish wrap no doubt but that particular writer Jerome Solomon has no love for the Rocket. You might want to give Jerome a call and ask him how his previous interview requests with the Rocket have gone. Or you can call up Richard Justice at ESPN or the H.Chronicle. He might be able to guide you in the direction of the rockets fans!

For some around we better hope the government gets a win on this one because it can and will most likely have an effect on another upcoming government action.
 
Jun 22, 2009
794
0
0
Glenn_Wilson said:
How would you know if he is liked in Texas? Do you live in Texas? Actually he is not well liked in Texas not even Houston. The way Andy P. and the Rocket left the Astros left the majority of Astro's Fans Angry with them. The rest of Texas does not like the Rocket because he was never a Texas Ranger which by the way enjoys the most fans within the state.

He is liked in NY because of the Yankees maybe? I would not know because I do not live there.

Also your comparison of the Houston Chronicle to the livestong.com is an epic fail in my opinion. The chronicle is a fish wrap no doubt but that particular writer Jerome Solomon has no love for the Rocket. You might want to give Jerome a call and ask him how his previous interview requests with the Rocket have gone. Or you can call up Richard Justice at ESPN or the H.Chronicle. He might be able to guide you in the direction of the rockets fans!

For some around we better hope the government gets a win on this one because it can and will most likely have an effect on another upcoming government action.
uh oh, you dropped the epic fail card, you win! :rolleyes:

umm... no. i don't live in texas and if he isn't popular there that shows how far he's fallen. it's also quite possible that clemens is unpopular with solomon but he's still afraid to publish negative statements within his hometown. he'd be certain to offend some RC supporters that are virtually non-existent in other parts of the state or country. either way you're missing the point. the article is a bit misleading and on that point we seem to agree. i'm also not sure it sums up the majority view as was suggested.
 
Dec 7, 2010
8,773
3
0
lean said:
uh oh, you dropped the epic fail card, you win! :rolleyes:

umm... no. i don't live in texas and if he isn't popular there that shows how far he's fallen. it's also quite possible that clemens is unpopular with solomon but he's still afraid to publish negative statements within his hometown. he'd be certain to offend some RC supporters that are virtually non-existent in other parts of the state or country. either way you're missing the point. the article is a bit misleading and on that point we seem to agree. i'm also not sure it sums up the majority view as was suggested.
If they have a roundtable for example on the 4 letter sports network show (around the horn) why do all the supposed MLB experts say this trial does not mean anything? The chron article basically parrots what those guys are saying in the evenings on Cable television. I just thought that seemed like a majority view, in my opinion.

Oh the epic fail is a interwebs trump! :D
 
Mar 18, 2009
775
0
0
These doping-in-other-sports discussions always seem to get bogged down in gross generalizations about nations ("Americans are like this because...") or in endless ethical debates about the nature of cheating (how doping is like or not like stealing) or drug use. I think it might be more interesting to think about the traditions in different sports, and how drug use is viewed within those cultures. For example, my feeling is that in baseball it really matters to the majority of fans that the players are clean--that there's genuine anger in the fanbase over the issue, and that the reason for this is that baseball is a family sport with a very important sense of tradition. The average Yankees fan knows the names of players (and often,stats) from the 50s and 60s--and sometimes from the 30s. That is, the illusion of a kind of unchanging game which comes down to the "purity" of a guy trying to throw a ball past a guy who is trying to hit it with a bat is important to the people who love the sport. So it isn't just that Clemens is a titanic ******* (which he clearly is)--it's his betrayal of trust that genuinely angers people. But fans of American football mainly could not give a hairy rat's *** about steroids or drugs. It's a brutal sport and the players have to dope up to survive. It's also not a sport with a deep sense of history (outside of Green Bay) or tradition. Ask a football fan to name a single player from the 50s, and most of them will look at you like asked them for details about the Peloponnesian war. Football in Europe and the rest of the world is different due to intense international competition. Cycling is an anomaly, because while it has a long and deeply-rooted tradition, doping is inextricably part of that tradition.
 
Jun 22, 2009
794
0
0
Glenn_Wilson said:
If they have a roundtable for example on the 4 letter sports network show (around the horn) why do all the supposed MLB experts say this trial does not mean anything? The chron article basically parrots what those guys are saying in the evenings on Cable television. I just thought that seemed like a majority view, in my opinion.

Oh the epic fail is a interwebs trump! :D
haha, now we're getting somewhere. solomon's first statements are telling. he wants to skip ahead to the verdict and not have to even cover the proceedings. he probably wants to continue getting paid to go to baseball games instead of courthouses, part of me doesn't blame him.

i may have mis-spoke (mis-typed). the article parrots what's percieved as a majority view. the view that "it's a waste of money blah blah blah" because it's the easiest way to summarize and move on. it's emotionally convenient and many people are fine with that for now. it's parroted by sports writers, not particularly good ones if you're watching around the horn, because they don't want to tackle doping head on. they risk driving a wedge b/t athletes and access. it's exactly the same pattern that cycling press gets hammered on.

this cycle of surprise, disgust, an expedited punishment, and a return to denial of the problem will continue until it's unsustainable. no one's worse to listen to on this issue than sport writers. they're happy to tell you what to think and continue getting paid to watch sports and rub elbows with young stars.

a bit off topic but since your watching the network who must remain nameless... my favorite bit of foolishness is references to the steroid era in baseball as the dark and distant past as though that problem has been resolved with MLB's only partially WADA compliant testing standards. it's hilarious to watch. if the public were better informed i can gaurantee the majority view would be different.
 
Dec 7, 2010
8,773
3
0
lean said:
haha, now we're getting somewhere. solomon's first statements are telling. he wants to skip ahead to the verdict and not have to even cover the proceedings. he probably wants to continue getting paid to go to baseball games instead of courthouses, part of me doesn't blame him.

i may have mis-spoke (mis-typed). the article parrots what's percieved as a majority view. the view that "it's a waste of money blah blah blah" because it's the easiest way to summarize and move on. it's emotionally convenient and many people are fine with that for now. it's parroted by sports writers, not particularly good ones if you're watching around the horn, because they don't want to tackle doping head on. they risk driving a wedge b/t athletes and access. it's exactly the same pattern that cycling press gets hammered on.

this cycle of surprise, disgust, an expedited punishment, and a return to denial of the problem will continue until it's unsustainable. no one's worse to listen to on this issue than sport writers. they're happy to tell you what to think and continue getting paid to watch sports and rub elbows with young stars.

a bit off topic but since your watching the network who must remain nameless... my favorite bit of foolishness is references to the steroid era in baseball as the dark and distant past as though that problem has been resolved with MLB's only partially WADA compliant testing standards. it's hilarious to watch. if the public were better informed i can gaurantee the majority view would be different.
I think the joe public actualy miss the steriod era! I think they want it back. Baseball writers do try to make it a distant past that is now over but there was many people watching a 40 year old throw around 100 mph! Did they just not realize what they were watching? It was the steriods. It was the steriods that made Sammy Sozza hit bombs and thump his chest like a jack azz and people came to watch it all the time!

The reason the Rocket will go down is not because of the roids or HGH it is going to be that his EGO would not allow him to admit it! THAT PARALLEL to someone else around here in the clinic is worth some conversation. In my opinion Armstrong's EGO is and will be what in the end will have destroyed his stupid azz.
 
Clemens will (probably) go down because of evidence. Depending on how much is admissible. Haven't been following it that close.

The other Clemens aspect is that 95% of the people out there now just assume he did roids, and unlike Pettite decided to be belligerent about it and deny to the death. But they don't need to see it dragged out.

lean said:
no one's worse to listen to on this issue than sport writers. they're happy to tell you what to think and continue getting paid to watch sports and rub elbows with young stars.
Investigative journalist Greg Palast rips networks and paper reporters for doing this. It's lazy journalism in his view. It's much harder to get to the actual people to talk, let alone get them to answer real questions, than to simply call up one of your friends and get their comment. And of course he's right.

The other issue is that reporters don't ask hard questions much anymore because they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them. Not only will other athletes not want to talk to them, it causes potential damage to their sport, and with that, less overall revenue. If people aren't going to watch baseball because they are turned off by Clemens trial, and thus not going to watch/read your commentary you're not going to want to cover it. Again, it's lazy journalism.
 
@Wallace.
Do you think the fans cared when Bonds--a man whose head grew to the size of a medicine ball--was knocking balls out of the park like it was batting practise?

How about A-Rod? Shortly after he owned up to using roids' during his stint as a Ranger (but not a Yankee--no way!), I remember columnists saying his career was essentially over. That is certainly not the case.

Pettite's admission didn't seem to stir any anger, either. Nor did the report containing the names of over 100 players who were juiced.

Point being is I don't think the majority of baseball fans care about steroid use. In fact, a lot of hard-core fans have said the Bonds trial was racially motivated, and the Clemens trial is a waste of time.

I agree with your point about football, though. I've often wondered why so few people talk about PED's in a sport where everyone save the waterboy is clearly doped.
 
May 18, 2009
3,758
0
0
Of course the majority of fans don't care. Pro sports is entertainment. It does not apply to real life. The avg. fan may mouth the right words but then they go ahead and go to the ballpark or stadium and root for their team or player. If Clemens came out of retirement today and went to play for Atlanta he would be cheered by that town, and reviled elsewhere. That would go for any city in America. Heck, look how AC got boo'd during the introductions, while other dopers get cheered. It makes no sense when you apply the rules of every day society that people wish to live by to sports.

BTW, I don't care for Jerome Solomon but I do applaud the Chronicle Sports writers. They do not kiss the ring. I am amazed that Richard Justice still gets sports figures to talk to him after he trashes them on a regular basis in his column.
 
I always felt that if Clemens had given a mea culpa apology, the way Pettie did, and stood next to Andy when he said it, it would have washed over within a week. He probably could have pitched again next year and would have received plenty of cheers, with a spattering of boos and not just from hometown fans.

Bonds however, the damage was so far done, and he just looked like a grotesque freak of nature. It became beyond repairable. As such I question whether either of these guys will make the Hall of Fame. Palmero's cooked too. Not for the roids, but for being a belligerent jerk, pointing his fingers at the congressional hearing and such. Ugly. Like McGuire he may not have had the numbers anyway.
 
Agreed!
The amazing thing is their heads are so far in the clouds that they couldn't recognize a tiny bit of contrition would have gone a long way.

Anyways, for what it's worth, today the judge in the Clemens case ripped into Congress for refusing to provide the testimony that he gave prior to the public hearing. I have no idea why they wouldn't provide the information.

The judge also said he's considering allowing players to come in and testify about their PED use.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY