Rominger......... any good?

[issoisso]

MODERATOR EDIT: This post and subsequent replies have been moved from its original topic as it was derailing the discussion there

A subject I've seen discussed a fair bit lately is Rominger coming from nowhere to suddenly become a star due to EPO. Usually he's compared to another superstar of the same age, Greg LeMond.

So, being a cycling history buff, I thought I'd be a thread necromancer and ressuscitate this topic to shed some light on this

Rominger always had the talent. The fact that some people (who are ill-informed, which is understandable) think he showed up out of nowhere at a late age is due to a combination of his horrible luck, having turned pro at a late age, and the fact that over time the only race results that stick in your mind tend to be the Grand Tours

Here's a short summary of how and why his GT ability was "masked" from people who weren't paying close attention


1987: Neo pro at a very late age. But immediately he showed star potential. He won his very first race as a pro and a few weeks later finished on the GC podium of his very first major stage race, the Tirreno. Then he went to the Giro del Trentino, another big race (it was much bigger back then) and in the very mountainous course he was again 3rd overall. Remember, he was a neo-pro.

Then came the Giro. He placed second both in the first long TT and the queen mountain stage (he lost the stage win to a guy from the break of the day. You'll notice that would become a recurring theme).
In fact, after this queen stage, two and a half weeks into the Giro he was 2nd just 5 seconds from the pink jersey. Heck, he'd be leading by 2 minutes at that point if his team hadn't lost scads of time in the TTT. When was the last time you saw a neo-pro do that? This, mind, was years before EPO.

1988: Worked for Bugno at the Giro (Bugno was very well placed until crashing during the last week) and won a stage. Rominger then led the team at the Tour. Placed well in the 70-something km TT but had allergy problems in the mountains and suffered in the heat (he'd never get rid of that last weakness) and lost lots of time. Decided to save his strength for the final TT and just barely missed out on the stage win by 2 seconds. Notice that his quality was so completely not in doubt that he was the team's Tour leader in his second season as a pro (at age 27).

1989: Was supposed to lead the team at the Giro, with Bugno being leader for the Tour. Rominger crashed at the start of the Giro, the day after he had dropped all the other GC riders on Mount Etna (but losing the stage win to the break of the day) and was out for most of the season. He still won the Tirreno and the Giro di Lombardia.

1990: Started the season by winning the Tirreno again. Worked for bugno at the tour, led the team at the vuelta. Suffered from allergies, and as a result his performances varied wildly, from dropping all the favorites on the first two mountain finishes (again losing both stage wins to breaks that had been given many minutes' lead), to finishing 10 minutes down on another mountain stage. Finished the vuelta 16th overall. The same happened at the Tour and he was anonymous again. Sat out most of the second half of the season to get his allergies treated.

1991: Dominated paris-nice, romandie and (except for one bad day) the dauphine. his team weren't invited to the giro or vuelta and he missed the tour because of tendonitis

1992: Most people know his results from here on

Was he on EPO? Of course he was. The files seized in Ferrari's documents show clearly that he was on EPO as early as the 1992 Worlds in Benidorm (you just have to see him detonating the race again and again to realize he was ludicrously strong that day).

But the point here is that he was not a product of EPO like some claim. He was, like a few others, a rider with superstar talent from day one. Sometimes, circumstances just stop you from showing your talent. For further proof, just look into Fignon's "disappearing act" between his 1985 injury and his 1989 return. You'll find it actually had very little to do with the injury. Sometimes, life just gets in the way

 

[pmcg76]

A subject I've seen discussed a fair bit lately is Rominger coming from nowhere to suddenly become a star due to EPO. Usually he's compared to another superstar of the same age, Greg LeMond.

So, being a cycling history buff, I thought I'd be a thread necromancer and ressuscitate this topic to shed some light on this

Rominger always had the talent. The fact that some people (who are ill-informed, which is understandable) think he showed up out of nowhere at a late age is due to a combination of his horrible luck, having turned pro at a late age, and the fact that over time the only race results that stick in your mind tend to be the Grand Tours

Here's a short summary of how and why his GT ability was "masked" from people who weren't paying close attention


1987: Neo pro at a very late age. But immediately he showed star potential. He won his very first race as a pro and a few weeks later finished on the GC podium of his very first major stage race, the Tirreno. Then he went to the Giro del Trentino, another big race (it was much bigger back then) and in the very mountainous course he was again 3rd overall. Remember, he was a neo-pro.

Then came the Giro. He placed second both in the first long TT and the queen mountain stage (he lost the stage win to a guy from the break of the day. You'll notice that would become a recurring theme).
In fact, after this queen stage, two and a half weeks into the Giro he was 2nd just 5 seconds from the pink jersey. Heck, he'd be leading by 2 minutes at that point if his team hadn't lost scads of time in the TTT. When was the last time you saw a neo-pro do that? This, mind, was years before EPO.

1988: Worked for Bugno at the Giro (Bugno was very well placed until crashing during the last week) and won a stage. Rominger then led the team at the Tour. Placed well in the 70-something km TT but had allergy problems in the mountains and suffered in the heat (he'd never get rid of that last weakness) and lost lots of time. Decided to save his strength for the final TT and just barely missed out on the stage win by 2 seconds. Notice that his quality was so completely not in doubt that he was the team's Tour leader in his second season as a pro (at age 27).

1989: Was supposed to lead the team at the Giro, with Bugno being leader for the Tour. Rominger crashed at the start of the Giro, the day after he had dropped all the other GC riders on Mount Etna (but losing the stage win to the break of the day) and was out for most of the season. He still won the Tirreno and the Giro di Lombardia.

1990: Started the season by winning the Tirreno again. Worked for bugno at the tour, led the team at the vuelta. Suffered from allergies, and as a result his performances varied wildly, from dropping all the favorites on the first two mountain finishes (again losing both stage wins to breaks that had been given many minutes' lead), to finishing 10 minutes down on another mountain stage. Finished the vuelta 16th overall. The same happened at the Tour and he was anonymous again. Sat out most of the second half of the season to get his allergies treated.

1991: Dominated paris-nice, romandie and (except for one bad day) the dauphine. his team weren't invited to the giro or vuelta and he missed the tour because of tendonitis

1992: Most people know his results from here on

Was he on EPO? Of course he was. The files seized in Ferrari's documents show clearly that he was on EPO as early as the 1992 Worlds in Benidorm (you just have to see him detonating the race again and again to realize he was ludicrously strong that day).

But the point here is that he was not a product of EPO like some claim. He was, like a few others, a rider with superstar talent from day one. Sometimes, circumstances just stop you from showing your talent. For further proof, just look into Fignon's "disappearing act" between his 1985 injury and his 1989 return. You'll find it actually had very little to do with the injury. Sometimes, life just gets in the way

Sorry for being a stickler for detail but I thought Rominger turned pro in 86 with the Swiss Cilo-Aufina team. I actually agree with a lot of what you say but it is a little coincidental that his allergies got sorted the same time as he started working with Ferrari.

He collapsed badly in the last week of the 87 Giro and abandoned, do you know what happened him there? Not being snide, just I dont know what actually happened other than he was 2nd, then lost time and DNF.

On that mountain stage in which he finished 2nd there is a pciture of him crossing the line with his arms in the air as if he had won. He didnt realise Van de Velde had stayed out in front.

 

[issoisso]

Sorry for being a stickler for detail but I thought Rominger turned pro in 86 with the Swiss Cilo-Aufina team.

No problem. I'm similar
He was a trainee, actually. Only rode the last few of months the season and only small swiss races.

I actually agree with a lot of what you say but it is a little coincidental that his allergies got sorted the same time as he started working with Ferrari.

Actually, he had been working with Ferrari since the Brianzoli training camp in December 86. I know this because I remember Rominger saying he was depressed and thinking about quitting cycling when Ferrari showed up at that training camp, was very impressed with his stress test results and told him he could be a star.

He collapsed badly in the last week of the 87 Giro and abandoned, do you know what happened him there? Not being snide, just I dont know what actually happened other than he was 2nd, then lost time and DNF.

I don't know of any issues. I assume it's just the normal wear and tear of doing your first GT and not being experienced in measuring your effort. Even Merckx faded badly in the last few days of his first GT.

On that mountain stage in which he finished 2nd there is a pciture of him crossing the line with his arms in the air as if he had won. He didnt realise Van de Velde had stayed out in front.

Yeah, I have that Giro (and almost all since 85) on video. He goes bananas when he crosses that line

 

[pmcg76]

No problem. I'm similar
He was a trainee, actually. Only rode the last few of months the season and only small swiss races.



Actually, he had been working with Ferrari since the Brianzoli training camp in December 86. I know this because I remember Rominger saying he was depressed and thinking about quitting cycling when Ferrari showed up at that training camp, was very impressed with his stress test results and told him he could be a star.



I don't know of any issues. I assume it's just the normal wear and tear of doing your first GT and not being experienced in measuring your effort. Even Merckx faded badly in the last few days of his first GT.



Yeah, I have that Giro (and almost all since 85) on video. He goes bananas when he crosses that line

Cheers for clarifying everything for me.

Sorry, I just doublechecked his stats, accroding to this website http://www.cyclebase.nl/?lang=en&page=renner&sex=m&id=13803 he completed the Giro in 86. Cycle Base is usually reliable so just wondering if it could be an error.

 

[issoisso]

Nice find!

I got the info on his first career year from an interview/restrospective of his career in a local cycling mag. Guess I can chuck that out the window

 

[Berzin]

Nice find!

I got the info on his first career year from an interview/retrospective of his career in a local cycling mag. Guess I can chuck that out the window.

Yes you can chuck that out the window, among other things you've said.

You make it seem as if Rominger's prominence had nothing to do with his affiliation with the most notorious doping doctor in the history of cycling, as if his career trajectory was due to nothing but hard work and talent.

You are also the only poster who's made the comparison between Rominger and Lemond, another patently false premise. Their careers have nothing in common, this is just YOU saying so.

Rominger is another in the long line of frauds affiliated to Dr. Ferrari. I enjoyed watching him race, but please do not come on here with this pseudo-revisionist mumbo jumbo about how he accomplished his wins.

You are being disingenuous at best.

 

[issoisso]

Yes you can chuck that out the window, among other things you've said.

You make it seem as if Rominger's prominence had nothing to do with his affiliation with the most notorious doping doctor in the history of cycling, as if his career trajectory was due to nothing but hard work and talent.

You are also the only poster who's made the comparison between Rominger and Lemond, another patently false premise. Their careers have nothing in common, this is just YOU saying so.

Rokminger is another in the long line of frauds affiliated to Dr. Ferrari. I enjoyed watching him race, but please do not come on here with this pseudo-revisionist mumbo jumbo about how he accomplished his wins.

You are being disingenuous at best.

So, basically you have no arguments, no facts, no logic. You just come in here and say "that's crap". Wow. Awesome. And the worst part is, you're accusing me of writing ideas I've never thought, much less written down.

And you wonder why people keep shooting down your posts all over this forum.

 

[issoisso]

Yes you can chuck that out the window, among other things you've said.

You make it seem as if Rominger's prominence had nothing to do with his affiliation with the most notorious doping doctor in the history of cycling, as if his career trajectory was due to nothing but hard work and talent.

You are also the only poster who's made the comparison between Rominger and Lemond, another patently false premise. Their careers have nothing in common, this is just YOU saying so.

Rokminger is another in the long line of frauds affiliated to Dr. Ferrari. I enjoyed watching him race, but please do not come on here with this pseudo-revisionist mumbo jumbo about how he accomplished his wins.

You are being disingenuous at best.

So, basically you have no arguments, no facts, no logic. You just come in here and say "that's crap". Wow. Awesome. And the worst part is, you're accusing me of writing ideas I've never thought, much less written down.


Still, because I'm an idiot, I'm actually going to reply to you.

You make it seem as if Rominger's prominence had nothing to do with his affiliation with the most notorious doping doctor in the history of cycling, as if his career trajectory was due to nothing but hard work and talent.

Yeah....except for the part where I say it's obvious he was on EPO, and the part where I point out he was working with Ferrari for most of his career and not just during the 90s. But feel free to ignore that, since it doesn't suit you.

You are also the only poster who's made the comparison between Rominger and Lemond, another patently false premise. Their careers have nothing in common, this is just YOU saying so.

When did I say they had anything in common? Quite the opposite. I pointed out people in this forum have on more than one occasion compared their careers since they had such different career paths and were the same age.



And then you wonder why people keep shooting down your posts all over this forum. This is why. Because most of your posts are random insults to random people, while not presenting any logical arguments or facts to support any, and I do mean ANY of your insane assertions.

Also, congratulations. I believe this is a personal record for you. The longest you've ever gone without randomly inserting an insult to that group of 4 or 5 forum posters you despise in the middle of a random post. Dr.Maserati must be overjoyed.

 

[pmcg76]

Yes you can chuck that out the window, among other things you've said.

You make it seem as if Rominger's prominence had nothing to do with his affiliation with the most notorious doping doctor in the history of cycling, as if his career trajectory was due to nothing but hard work and talent.

You are also the only poster who's made the comparison between Rominger and Lemond, another patently false premise. Their careers have nothing in common, this is just YOU saying so.

Rokminger is another in the long line of frauds affiliated to Dr. Ferrari. I enjoyed watching him race, but please do not come on here with this pseudo-revisionist mumbo jumbo about how he accomplished his wins.

You are being disingenuous at best.

Well I dont think Rominger was a complete dud like Bjarne Riis either.

The comparison with LeMond is misplaced but Rominger was as much a future Tour winner as Indurain was in the pre-EPO years. They had very similar palmares and Rominger even had better results in the mountains as was highlighted.

I think his point was Rominger was not as much a product of EPO as a lot of people like to believe and that he did have decent results pre EPO.
Rominger was already in his 20s when he took up cycling and in a very short space of time reached the pro ranks which indicates some level of natural talent.

Of course his success in the 90s was due to EPO but then which riders success wasnt due to EPO.

Maybe he stretched it a bit too much but I think Issossio was a big Rominger fan so there is a touch of fanboyism in there as well.

As usual the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Ah, beat me to it

 

[issoisso]

The comparison with LeMond is misplaced but Rominger was as much a future Tour winner as Indurain was in the pre-EPO years. They had very similar palmares and Rominger even had better results in the mountains as was highlighted.

Again, I didn't make the comparison. I pointed out that people in this forum have made the comparison and that they've put forth the idea that "They're both the same age and one was great from day 1 while the other was crap till he was 30, ergo Rominger had no talent and was all doping", and then I proceeded to lay out why I believe this is a wrong idea.

Maybe he stretched it a bit too much but I think Issossio was a big Rominger fan so there is a touch of fanboyism in there as well.

Actually, the only rider I've ever been a fan of is Induráin

 

[Martin318is]

This list of posts has been pulled out of the Myths thread.

Enjoy!

(and if you can think of a better name for this thread, let me know)

 

[Iker_Baqueiro]

I remember Tony Rominger being in interviewed in Spanish at the TDF, in the 90s. He spoke perfect spanish by the way.

He said something that impressed me: "Miguel Indurain is not invincible".

After that, he rode and beat the great Miguel Indurain in a time trial. Amazing !!

 

[Exroadman24902]

I'd like to know if he was transfusing blood or using another drug within the velodrome he shattered the hour record in. All media were banned attending the velodrome. It's insult to Obree and Boardman to even suggest Rominger beat them..he was using a doping Dr, so his record should be soon as unclean IMO

 

[Ferminal]

I'd like to know if he was transfusing blood or using another drug within the velodrome he shattered the hour record in. All media were banned attending the velodrome. It's insult to Obree and Boardman to even suggest Rominger beat them..he was using a doping Dr, so his record should be soon as unclean IMO

Is there any hard evidence of him doping?

 

[frenchfry]

I used to cheer for Rominger because he looked more like an accountant than a pro cyclist. Then I realised he was one of the forerunners of serious oxygen vector doping and his success had nothing to do with his physique.

Now he is sharing his knowledge and techniques with his clients. Isn't cycling a wonderful sport!

 

[Exroadman24902]

Is there any hard evidence of him doping?

I believe he consulted a notorious doping Dr. He also rode 55.291 kmph on a bog standard tri bar mounted track bike to win the hour in 1994, which is awfully fast...way way ahead what is humanly possible by Cancellera IMO. He also used the hay fever allergy story to explain why he had previously struggled as a grand tour GC rider. Basically, he has no major GC form in his enitre career from 1986-1991 and pops up out of nowhere in 1992, when he was 33 years old.

 

[hrotha]

I figure Martin actually intended to put some Rominger posts here. This was being discussed in another thread, and it definitely changed my perception of Rominger before the EPO era.

 

[Le breton]

Is there any hard evidence of him doping?

I would say proofs are about 55 281 meters long on hard wood.
(just half joking. If Padilla is right Rominger might have had a SCx almost as low as Boardman in superman position, but I would have to reread Padilla, keen, etc.)

Seriously, can you just imagine that he would have been racing clean? I can't.
So easy for Swiss racers in those days.

 

[Exroadman24902]

I see Rominger-at 27-29 years old, usually the peak years of an athlete, is down in 50th or 60th GC placings at the Tour De France in two of his participations. Where lemond or Fignon or Hampsten would surely not have worried about him in those days, he then thrashes all of them at the age of 32 and 33 years old, just when EPO arrives, and also he has that Doctor as well. Under normal circumstances, he was a top 10 GC at best, but not a winner of any of the grand tours IMO

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Is there any hard evidence of him doping?

His crit was 58%...

http://www.dr.dk/Sporten/Dokumentar/Doping/20050530140756.htm

Click on "Danskerlægen - del 2"

EDIT: Okay, that **** doesn't work anymore, but I distinctly remember 58%.

 

[laziali]

Well, he was know in the peton as EPO Tony

 

[pmcg76]

The posts from the other thread were never pulled across into this one. I dont know how to quote from other threads so I just copied and pasted the most relevant section. Original post was by Issossio



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by issoisso
A subject I've seen discussed a fair bit lately is Rominger coming from nowhere to suddenly become a star due to EPO. Usually he's compared to another superstar of the same age, Greg LeMond.

So, being a cycling history buff, I thought I'd be a thread necromancer and ressuscitate this topic to shed some light on this

Rominger always had the talent. The fact that some people (who are ill-informed, which is understandable) think he showed up out of nowhere at a late age is due to a combination of his horrible luck, having turned pro at a late age, and the fact that over time the only race results that stick in your mind tend to be the Grand Tours

Here's a short summary of how and why his GT ability was "masked" from people who weren't paying close attention


1987: Neo pro at a very late age. But immediately he showed star potential. He won his very first race as a pro and a few weeks later finished on the GC podium of his very first major stage race, the Tirreno. Then he went to the Giro del Trentino, another big race (it was much bigger back then) and in the very mountainous course he was again 3rd overall. Remember, he was a neo-pro.

Then came the Giro. He placed second both in the first long TT and the queen mountain stage (he lost the stage win to a guy from the break of the day. You'll notice that would become a recurring theme).
In fact, after this queen stage, two and a half weeks into the Giro he was 2nd just 5 seconds from the pink jersey. Heck, he'd be leading by 2 minutes at that point if his team hadn't lost scads of time in the TTT. When was the last time you saw a neo-pro do that? This, mind, was years before EPO.

1988: Worked for Bugno at the Giro (Bugno was very well placed until crashing during the last week) and won a stage. Rominger then led the team at the Tour. Placed well in the 70-something km TT but had allergy problems in the mountains and suffered in the heat (he'd never get rid of that last weakness) and lost lots of time. Decided to save his strength for the final TT and just barely missed out on the stage win by 2 seconds. Notice that his quality was so completely not in doubt that he was the team's Tour leader in his second season as a pro (at age 27).

1989: Was supposed to lead the team at the Giro, with Bugno being leader for the Tour. Rominger crashed at the start of the Giro, the day after he had dropped all the other GC riders on Mount Etna (but losing the stage win to the break of the day) and was out for most of the season. He still won the Tirreno and the Giro di Lombardia.

1990: Started the season by winning the Tirreno again. Worked for bugno at the tour, led the team at the vuelta. Suffered from allergies, and as a result his performances varied wildly, from dropping all the favorites on the first two mountain finishes (again losing both stage wins to breaks that had been given many minutes' lead), to finishing 10 minutes down on another mountain stage. Finished the vuelta 16th overall. The same happened at the Tour and he was anonymous again. Sat out most of the second half of the season to get his allergies treated.

1991: Dominated paris-nice, romandie and (except for one bad day) the dauphine. his team weren't invited to the giro or vuelta and he missed the tour because of tendonitis

1992: Most people know his results from here on

Was he on EPO? Of course he was. The files seized in Ferrari's documents show clearly that he was on EPO as early as the 1992 Worlds in Benidorm (you just have to see him detonating the race again and again to realize he was ludicrously strong that day).

But the point here is that he was not a product of EPO like some claim. He was, like a few others, a rider with superstar talent from day one. Sometimes, circumstances just stop you from showing your talent. For further proof, just look into Fignon's "disappearing act" between his 1985 injury and his 1989 return. You'll find it actually had very little to do with the injury. Sometimes, life just gets in the way

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My respone was this:

Sorry for being a stickler for detail but I thought Rominger turned pro in 86 with the Swiss Cilo-Aufina team. I actually agree with a lot of what you say but it is a little coincidental that his allergies got sorted the same time as he started working with Ferrari.

He collapsed badly in the last week of the 87 Giro and abandoned, do you know what happened him there? Not being snide, just I dont know what actually happened other than he was 2nd, then lost time and DNF.

On that mountain stage in which he finished 2nd there is a pciture of him crossing the line with his arms in the air as if he had won. He didnt realise Van der Velde had stayed out in front.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rominger did take up cycling very late, he was in his 20s but progressed to the pro ranks very quickly. He did in fact turn pro in 86 with the Swiss Cilo-Aufina team. As was pointed out, Rominger was lying in 2nd place in the 87 Giro after 2 weeks and had shown form in the mountains and then collapsed and abandoned. He was a second year pro. Romingers results were favourable with Indurain pre 90s so if you believe Rominger was a product of EPO, then you have to believe Indurain was also and vice versa if you dont believe Indurain was a product of EPO.

We are not saying that Rominger didnt benefit big-time from EPO but he was not a Bjarne Riis type either.

 

[Granville57]

These two identical threads are confusing.

Mods?

 

[Le breton]

I see Rominger-at 27-29 years old, usually the peak years of an athlete, is down in 50th or 60th GC placings at the Tour De France in two of his participations. Where lemond or Fignon or Hampsten would surely not have worried about him in those days, he then thrashes all of them at the age of 32 and 33 years old, just when EPO arrives, and also he has that Doctor as well. Under normal circumstances, he was a top 10 GC at best, but not a winner of any of the grand tours IMO

It might be worthwhile remembering that Rominger started cycling late.
Here is a quote from wikipedia.

Tony Rominger (born 27 March 1961 in Vejle, Denmark) is a Swiss former professional road racing cyclist who won the Vuelta a España in 1992, 1993 and 1994 and the Giro d'Italia in 1995.

He began cycling late, allegedly spurred by competition with his brother.

 

[ChrisE]

Is there any hard evidence of him doping?

Well certainly. He started thriving after GL started sucking. What else proof do you need. Sheesh.