Rough Attempt at an All-Time Ranking

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It's not about ranking Cavendish above a 1-time winner. It's that in this particular ranking system Cavendish Tour points tally is equivalent to 5 full Tour wins.

Which one one hand seems fair as nobody won more than 5 Tours, but on the other hand it is also reasonable to think that 5 Tour wins are a bigger achievement.
Nobody really wins 5 tours without winning a tonne of stages, stage placings, minor jerseys, etc.
 
Nobody really wins 5 tours without winning a tonne of stages, stage placings, minor jerseys, etc.
stage places are not counted in this ranking and in the 90's (as an example when Indurain won his 5 Tours) points and mountains classifications system already favored the sprinters and breakaways.

But ok, take Indurain, he won 12 stages which is 84 points in this ranking. Cavendish has 252 points from Tour performances or 168 points more than Indurain from stages and points classification.

168 points is almost equivalent to 3 Tours and 2 third places. And Indurain's 12 stage wins put him equal 16th in all-time Tour stage win ranking and is the most stage wins by a non-sprinter in the last 35 years.
 
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Wow, I'm shocked that someone would argue that sprinters can't be ranked above a one time Tour winner. That statement is so crazy that I'm thinking I must be getting trolled.

Also, where does that leave races like Fleche-Wallone that is also just a sprint?
 
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stage places are not counted in this ranking and in the 90's (as an example when Indurain won his 5 Tours) points and mountains classifications system already favored the sprinters and breakaways.

But ok, take Indurain, he won 12 stages which is 84 points in this ranking. Cavendish has 252 points from Tour performances or 168 points more than Indurain from stages and points classification.

168 points is almost equivalent to 3 Tours and 2 third places. And Indurain's 12 stage wins put him equal 16th in all-time Tour stage win ranking and is the most stage wins by a non-sprinter in the last 35 years.
Actually, which ranking is it?

I do think PCS with a stage win being 20% of a GC win overrates stage wins.
 
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We start the day with the strongest Dutchman and the strongest two Swiss.

20 Joop Zoetemelk 590
19 Tony Rominger 636
18 Fabian Cancellara 651
17 Freddy Maertens 654
16 Laurent Jalabert 671

Zoetemelk and Jalabert are two more examples of riders who don't have that many major wins (three and four), but who kept taking points for over a decade. Maertens is an exception to the rule that you need a long and steady career, but he took a ridiculous amount of points in '76 and '77, followed by a surprise comeback in '81.

Rominger was a late bloomer, born three months before LeMond. Cancellara is at the same level as Boonen in the classics, but he also took five gold medals in time trials.
I'm quite surprised with Cancellara so far ahead of other non-GT riders of his era (and ahead of both Froome and Contador!). In the CQ rankings, Cancellara always scored low, but here he is the 2nd best in the 21st century (behind Valverde, I presume). And CQ has almost the same weight given to TT championships. Strade Bianche is clearly overrated here (especially the first two wins of Canc), but that should only make a very minor difference (10 pts).
 
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How is a finish on a 10+% hill the same as a sprint?

When has a sprint and a puncheur finish suddenly become the same thing?
When the nature of race changed to having the positioning and finishing ability be by far the biggest requirement in the skillset (surviving the terrain is an obvious requirement for winning any race).

Pre-2004 roleur ability or the ability to pick a point of attacking counted as well. Now they do not.
 
How is a finish on a 10+% hill the same as a sprint?

When has a sprint and a puncheur finish suddenly become the same thing?
How would you define a sprint then? How steep must the finish be to not be included in the sprint category? Is Champs Elysees a sprint stage then?

If they go full speed for 300 metres, to me it's a sprint whether it's uphill, downhill or on flat roads.
 
I did 20 stages instead of counting the prologue but if we do 21 than it is 9.7.


Winning is also a part of cycling and that is what they did. If they were given less hierarchy than they would make as much or receive the same support. The only time sprinters have not been supported is if they have a legit general classification leader with the one's in recent memory was Cav and WVA though Cav got Sky's support at the end. I don't think anyone will argue Gerrans had a better career than Cav or Cipo.

Now is every race Boonen won in a sprint lessened?
Boonen was not a pure sprinter, but a puncheur with an excellent sprint. But he was outclassed by Cancellara when push came to shove, whose motor was just bigger. Of course winning is part of cycling, but not every win is equal to others. Only two or three teems can have a potential Tour winner on their rosters. All the other teams have to make due with the resources they have to try and get wins in situations outside GC, which is why the overall winner is the most accomplished rider in the peloton, against whom all others are awarded their relative status and merits. But the king is the king.
 
If we were to take this logic at all seriously - and I’d suggest that we should not - this whole discussion could be replaced in its entirety by a simple tally of Tour de France wins.
No, but the Tour is the Tour. Or do you not think the Tour winner is not the biggest among the Bigs? To make things more obvious, Tour winners, because they are such gifted and special riders have in the history of cycling also been capable of winning the Giro and Vuelta, the classics, World's, PN, TA. So for me the difference is among the riders who can win some of the other races, but not the Tour, which demonstrates a limit in their greatness. That's it. Of course, cycling is not just the Tour, but the French race is a pretty massive trump card when set against the careers of riders with excellent palmares who have not won it.
 
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Tour is the biggest race out there, but let's not pretend that the Tour is everything in cycling. Not even close...
Yes, if you haven't won the Tour, you can still be a great champion, a legend. Or do you think Girardengo, Binda, Van Steenbergen, Van Looy, De Vlaeminck, Moser, Kelly, Bettini, Cancellara... aren't legends?!
Yes, a sprinter can be ranked above Tour winner. Cav and Cippo are certainly bigger champions than Thomas, Schleck, Sastre, Pereiro, Riis, Pingeon, Aimar, Walkowiak...
And no, Stephen Roche certainly isn't a bigger champion than Sean Kelly. Nor is Greg Lemond for that matter...
See my last post. I agree with you, but as I wrote the Tour is just the most prestigious accomplishment in cycling. All those riders were greats. Moser was a great rider, but Hinault was greater. Kelly was a great rider, but Lemond was greater. Bettini was a great rider, but Ullrich was greater.
 
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See my last post. I agree with you, but as I wrote the Tour is just the most prestigious accomplishment in cycling. All those riders were greats. Moser was a great rider, but Hinault was greater. Kelly was a great rider, but Lemond was greater. Bettini was a great rider, but Ullrich was greater.
Hinault was greater than Moser
Lemond was not greater than Kelly
Ullrich was not greater than Bettini
 
I'd say about 3% incline, above that it begins to be something different.
Guess the stage finish (from inrng):

The Finish: another city finish to cheer, previous arrivals in [...] have been outside town/ But before the city comes into sight there’s a climb at the 8km to go point. 1.5km at 5% sounds like nothing but remember after 230km it’s a touch more but it’s no Poggio either, just a small drag. There’s a fast descent between 3km and 2km to go then the road flattens out briefly. It drops again, 500m at 4% and a crash risk given the speed but the road is very wide. With 1km to go they cross the Vienne river on a wide bridge and from here there’s 750m to the finish, the road rises at 5-6% all the way to the line.

 
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Guess the stage finish (from inrng):

The Finish: another city finish to cheer, previous arrivals in [...] have been outside town/ But before the city comes into sight there’s a climb at the 8km to go point. 1.5km at 5% sounds like nothing but remember after 230km it’s a touch more but it’s no Poggio either, just a small drag. There’s a fast descent between 3km and 2km to go then the road flattens out briefly. It drops again, 500m at 4% and a crash risk given the speed but the road is very wide. With 1km to go they cross the Vienne river on a wide bridge and from here there’s 750m to the finish, the road rises at 5-6% all the way to the line.

Was that really 750m? Okay, then that right there is the maximum for a sprint.
 
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Just outside of the top 10 we find a five-time Tour winner, a five-time Giro winner and a winner of all five monuments.

15 Giuseppe Saronni 691
14 Felice Gimondi 699
13 Rik Van Looy 752
12 Alfredo Binda 768
11 Miguel Induráin 771

Rik II would even be two places higher if it wasn't for Benoni Beheyt. Miguelón was the best rider of the 1990s, who crushed the opposition in the time trials. Armstrong would be #14 without the disqualifications.

Saronni, who took most of his major wins in his own country, is currently the manager of UAE. Gimondi is one of seven riders who've won all three Grand Tours. Binda was the first professional world champion, and he had the record number of stages in the Giro (41), until Cipollini broke that.
 
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Was that really 750m? Okay, then that right there is the maximum for a sprint.
When Hushovd was first over the line (ahead of Rojas) among the riders in the peloton on Mont des Alouettes, was that not decided in a sprint?

I'd say something can both be a puncheur finish and a sprint. When Evans beat Contador a few days later, he won the sprint.
 

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