Rough Attempt at an All-Time Ranking

Page 21 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
The question is why should it be used as some sort of substitute for actual wins regardless of the exchange rate.

I mean it is a bit of appeal to authority, but I have never seen Poulidor mentioned as one of the greats of the sport despite his 8 Tour podiums.
Ahh, well then, how does one rate Ullrich to Armstrong?
PS: I know we can't discuss that here.
 
Reactions: Sandisfan
Ahh, well then, how does one rate Ullrich to Armstrong?
PS: I know we can't discuss that here.
Ullrich is a great example in the wins vs consistency debate.

For me coming close in 2003 was the defining moment. Had he stopped the Armstrong win machine there, I think that would have done a lot for his standing (even supposing that the other 4 post 1999 Tour matchups had unchanged results).
 
Ullrich is a great example in the wins vs consistency debate.

For me coming close in 2003 was the defining moment. Had he stopped the Armstrong win machine there, I think that would have done a lot for his standing (even supposing that the other 4 post 1999 Tour matchups had unchanged results).
Ullrich had a fighting chance in 2003, but used up his bullets on that futile attack on what was it? He was in fantastic shape, but played the whole race wrong.
 
Last edited:
They didn't, so they made a lot of it up and exaggerated actual events. As long as it put the riders in a good light, they werren't complaining. Most of the races were organised by the media, so they obviously had no interest in underselling them to the public.
Yeah, it seems a bit weird reading the Le Tour book after having grown up because the author appears quite naïve and just relays stories of riders crashing on to a donkey and then landing on its back to ride it for a short while, rodeo-style, and other nonsense. When I read it as a 12-year-old, I just bought it all...
 
Yeah, it seems a bit weird reading the Le Tour book after having grown up because the author appears quite naïve and just relays stories of riders crashing on to a donkey and then landing on its back and other nonsense. When I read it as a 12-year-old, I just bought it all...
Could have happened, we don’t know.

For comparing Grand Tour to monument success, I think a perfect comparison is Devolder to Cobo pre losing 2011. Who would you say had the better career.
 
Reactions: Sandisfan
So I recounted the points with this improved system. There are fewer points for GT stages, and the full GC top 10 is counted.

Stage races:
*50/25/10/8/6/5/4/3/2/1 for top 10 GC in Tour
*40/20/8/6/5/4/3/2/1/1 for top 10 GC in Giro/Vuelta
*20 points for GC win in Paris-Nice/Dauphiné/Tirreno/Basque Country/Suisse
*10 points for GC win in Critérium International/Midi Libre/Catalunya/Burgos/Romandie
*5 points for GC win in smaller stage race

*5 points for stage/points classification/King of the mountains in Tour
*4 points for stage/points classification/King of the mountains in Giro/Vuelta
*2 points for stage in Paris-Nice/Tirreno/Basque Country/Dauphiné/Suisse

Championships:
*40/20/10 points for top 3 road race at WC/Olympics since 1996
*10 points for road race at EC//NC France/Belgium/Italy/Spain
*5 points for road race other countries

*25/10/5 points for top 3 ITT at WC/Olympics since 1996
*5 points for ITT at EC//NC France/Belgium/Italy/Spain
*3 points for ITT other countries

Classics:
*25/10/5 points for top 3 Monument
*15 points for GP des Nations/Paris-Tours/Gent-Wevelgem/Flèche Wallonne/Amstel/Strade Bianche/San Sebastián
*10 points for Omloop/E3/Emilia/Milan-Turin/Plouay/Bordeaux-Paris/Züri Metzgete/Hamburg
*5 points for other semi-classic
 
And here's the new result, expanded to a top 170:

1 Eddy Merckx 1977
2 Bernard Hinault 1218
3 Jacques Anquetil 1029
4 Fausto Coppi 1014
5 Gino Bartali 989
6 Sean Kelly 967
7 Alejandro Valverde 937
8 Roger De Vlaeminck 877
9 Francesco Moser 843
10 Alfredo Binda 791
11 Felice Gimondi 774
12 Miguel Induráin 733
13 Rik Van Looy 706
14 Costante Girardengo 679
15 Fabian Cancellara 671
16 Joop Zoetemelk 657
17 Laurent Jalabert 628
18 Chris Froome 616
19 Giuseppe Saronni 605
20 Freddy Maertens 603
21 Tony Rominger 600
22 Louison Bobet 599
23 Alberto Contador 599
24 Vincenzo Nibali 578
25 Tom Boonen 525
26 Peter Sagan 513
27 Rik Van Steenbergen 486
28 Learco Guerra 482
29 Fiorenzo Magni 479
30 Ferdi Kübler 469
31 Erik Zabel 467
32 Philippe Gilbert 459
33 Franco Bitossi 458
34 Johan Museeuw 451
35 Paolo Bettini 436
36 Mario Cipollini 436
37 Primož Roglič 435
38 Raymond Poulidor 435
39 Luis Ocaña 433
40 Jan Raas 426
41 Gianni Bugno 425
42 Jan Ullrich 423
43 Moreno Argentin 415
44 Greg LeMond 407
45 Laurent Fignon 398
46 Mark Cavendish 396
47 Alex Zülle 383
48 Joaquim Rodríguez 383
49 Herman Van Springel 378
50 Nicolas Frantz 376
51 Nairo Quintana 375
52 Oscar Freire 366
53 Alexander Vinokourov 360
54 Charly Gaul 340
55 Michele Bartoli 339
56 Henri Pélissier 337
57 Jan Janssen 336
58 Walter Godefroot 336
59 Gaetano Belloni 334
60 Hugo Koblet 329
61 Charly Mottet 328
62 Giovanni Brunero 322
63 Claudio Chiappucci 321
64 Antonin Magne 315
65 Stephen Roche 314
66 Pedro Delgado 312
67 Tadej Pogačar 310
68 André Leducq 308
69 Abraham Olano 308
70 François Faber 307
71 Vittorio Adorni 307
72 Rudi Altig 307
73 Alessandro Petacchi 305
74 Julian Alaphilippe 303
75 Cadel Evans 299
76 Bernard Thévenet 297
77 Hennie Kuiper 296
78 Roberto Heras 289
79 Briek Schotte 285
80 Gustave Garrigou 284
81 Philippe Thys 280
82 Bradley Wiggins 279
83 Gianbattista Baronchelli 277
84 Davide Rebellin 276
85 André Darrigade 271
86 Fred De Bruyne 270
87 Tony Martin 266
88 Nino Defilippis 266
89 Gianni Motta 264
90 Phil Anderson 260
91 Gilberto Simoni 253
92 Marino Lejarreta 253
93 Lucien Van Impe 251
94 Stan Ockers 251
95 Damiano Cunego 251
96 Rolf Sørensen 245
97 Federico Bahamontes 244
98 Julián Berrendero 242
99 Eric Vanderaerden 242
100 Michel Pollentier 239
101 Samuel Sánchez 237
102 Danilo Di Luca 234
103 Francesco Casagrande 234
104 Marco Pantani 233
105 Jean Stablinski 232
106 Ivan Basso 230
107 Miguel Poblet 229
108 Pascal Richard 227
109 Greg Van Avermaet 227
110 Delio Rodríguez 226
111 Didi Thurau 226
112 Raymond Impanis 224
113 Gastone Nencini 218
114 Michał Kwiatkowski 217
115 Alexander Kristoff 217

116 Octave Lapize 215
117 Wout Van Aert 215
118 Marcel Kint 214
119 Tom Dumoulin 213
120 Adrie van der Poel 211
121 Gerrie Knetemann 208
122 Robbie McEwen 208
123 Thor Hushovd 206
124 Lucien Petit-Breton 203
125 Denis Menchov 203
126 Stefano Garzelli 202
127 Sylvère Maes 201
128 Michele Dancelli 201
129 Claude Criquielion 200
130 Richard Virenque 200
131 Luis Herrera 198
132 Miguel María Lasa 198
133 Pavel Tonkov 196
134 Carlos Sastre 195
135 Heiri Suter 195
136 Eddy Planckaert 195
137 Giovanni Battaglin 195
138 Georges Ronsse 194
139 Giuseppe Olmo 194
140 Guido Bontempi 193
141 José Manuel Fuente 189
142 Jean Alavoine 189
143 Georges Speicher 186
144 Andrei Tchmil 186
145 Maurizio Fondriest 182
146 Frans Verbeeck 181
147 Peter Van Petegem 180
148 Geraint Thomas 178
149 Ottavio Bottecchia 175
150 Jakob Fuglsang 174
151 Joaquim Agostinho 172
152 Andy Schleck 171
153 Ercole Baldini 171
154 Italo Zilioli 170
155 Frank Vandenbroucke 168
156 Erik Breukink 168
157 Egan Bernal 167
158 Rui Costa 166

159 Guido Reybrouck 165
160 Maurice De Waele 161
161 Tom Steels 161
162 Richard Carapaz 160
163 Jo de Roo 159
164 Louis Trousselier 158
165 Steven Rooks 158
166 Edvald Boasson Hagen 156
167 André Greipel 155

168 Roger Pingeon 154
169 Roger Lapébie 154
170 Daniel Martin 154
 
*25/10/5 points for top 3 ITT at WC/Olympics since 1996
*5 points for ITT at EC//NC France/Belgium/Italy/Spain
*3 points for ITT other countries
[...]
*25/10/5 points for top 3 Monument
Yeah, I don't think Tony Martin's one-day record is equivalent to more than six monument wins.

EDIT: As an example: Tony Martin gets more points from one-day ITTs (WC/OG: 4 1st, 2 2nd and 2 3rd plus 10 nationals = 160 pts), than Gilbert does from all his monument results (5 wins and 6 3rd's = 155 pts).
 
Last edited:
I reckon I value consistency and podiums more than most on this forum, yet Valverde seems too high on this list, at least compared to other current day riders.

Not just saying this due to general forum hype, but Nibali has had a better career, right? All 3 GT's, plus 2 vastly different monuments.

I probably just don't value the WCRR nearly as much as others.
The big wins are just bigger.

Also Nibali has the 2nd most big race podiums. I think Nibs consistency gets underrated cause he stopped trying to win races like Tirreno
 
I reckon I value consistency and podiums more than most on this forum, yet Valverde seems too high on this list, at least compared to other current day riders.

Not just saying this due to general forum hype, but Nibali has had a better career, right? All 3 GT's, plus 2 vastly different monuments.

I probably just don't value the WCRR nearly as much as others.
No.
 
I reckon I value consistency and podiums more than most on this forum, yet Valverde seems too high on this list, at least compared to other current day riders.

Not just saying this due to general forum hype, but Nibali has had a better career, right? All 3 GT's, plus 2 vastly different monuments.

I probably just don't value the WCRR nearly as much as others.
I wouldn't say that Nibali had a better career than Valverde necessarily. Valverde's palmares in GTs (1 win and like 7 podiums, in all 3 GTs) + classics is quite unique and deserves better recognition that what we usually give him. However, I agree that he seems overrated in point based systems. I would never think of him as a top-10 best riders ever, perhaps not even bigger than Indurain - yes, Valverde has a much bigger and wider CV, but Indurain has 5 consecutive Tours.
 
I wouldn't say that Nibali had a better career than Valverde necessarily. Valverde's palmares in GTs (1 win and like 7 podiums, in all 3 GTs) + classics is quite unique and deserves better recognition that what we usually give him. However, I agree that he seems overrated in point based systems. I would never think of him as a top-10 best riders ever, perhaps not even bigger than Indurain - yes, Valverde has a much bigger and wider CV, but Indurain has 5 consecutive Tours.
Yep, Indurain ahead of Valverde, despite a far inferior one day record. He was the dominant GT rider of the peloton for FIVE years.
 
I wouldn't say that Nibali had a better career than Valverde necessarily. Valverde's palmares in GTs (1 win and like 7 podiums, in all 3 GTs) + classics is quite unique and deserves better recognition that what we usually give him. However, I agree that he seems overrated in point based systems. I would never think of him as a top-10 best riders ever, perhaps not even bigger than Indurain - yes, Valverde has a much bigger and wider CV, but Indurain has 5 consecutive Tours.
Nibali and Roglic also have that criterium. Purito had all 3 podiums and monument wins as well. Also 7 out of his 9 podiums are Vueltas, and for all his versatility he has only won 1 of the 5 monuments.
 
Reactions: gregrowlerson
Well, that's a great thread. I read most of the posts today and I wanted to share opinion about some of the discussions.

First, in the first few pages how much Valverde's minor wins and podiums should count? I remember something around 2018 that he'd swap most, if not all of his WC podiums for one win. Would Poulidor swap his podiums for Thomas' Tour win? Would Thomas do the same? Answers are clear. When you compare greatness (biggest) wins are what really matters. While smaller wins and podiums should count as well, they should be used to mostly split two close contenders.

Regarding "disrespecting" sprinters and throwing them out of top 100 because "they do nothing for 99% of the stage..", maybe we could apply the same logic for Rog, Valverder, Purito and take half of their wins because they don't do much for most of the stage and just outperform/outsprint their opponents it the last few hundred meters/kilometer? Granted, usually on a climb, but still...

And last about Cipo/Cav truckloads of stage wins and how they compare in the grand scale to riders like Fignon and LeMond.. I'm too young to have watched both of them and I didn't really dig how races really unfolded back in the days, but taking as example Pog this year, he could have won 5 or 6 stages had he, his team or the other teams cared enough to chase breaks the way sprinter teams do.. Rog could have 8 stage wins in this Vuelta...for the same reason.
For that reason alone I don't see reason to put much emphasis on sprint stage wins and how they compare to GT win. GT win requires you to sacrifice stages, heck even Thomas would've won the TT in his Tour and probably one or 2 stages..
Not sure how well I explained my point though.
 
Reactions: Sandisfan

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS