San Millán and Astana/Brajkovic

[sniper]

San Millán and Astana/Brajkovic

Not meant to become an extensive thread.

Just a small clarification: Wasn't San Millán fired by Astana in 2007?
August 2012:

Brajkovic, ninth in the Tour after crashing hard the day before the final time trial, spends a good deal of time in Boulder, training alone and working with his coach, Dirk Friel, and physiologist Iñigo San Millan.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...is-luck-in-adopted-hometown-of-boulder_235066

Does anybody know: Is San Millán a free lancer working with cyclists from different teams or is he contractually attached to one specific team? (Recall he's also working with Hendrik Redant's United Healthcare and still somehow attached to Garmin iirc).

Thanks! (And to be sure: not meant to become a heavy discussion thread)

 

[MajorTom]

He was not fired, he quitted

AS: Were you concerned that someone was going to sully your reputation? That one of your riders was going to do something illegal and ruin your good name?

ISM: Oh yeah! Of course that's a big concern. Because all the cases you're seeing recently, all the riders being caught were working outside the team, but to the general public they were in the team. So yeah, that's a major concern. I've never been with a team with a positive case, but when I left Saunier Duval, they had a positive with Mayo. And then when I quit Astana, knowing that was an accident waiting to happen, a few months later, Vinokourov and Kashechkin.
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/inigo-san-millan


I believe Astana is not working with him. He is Brajkovič's physiologist.

 

[sniper]

He was not fired, he quitted

AS: Were you concerned that someone was going to sully your reputation? That one of your riders was going to do something illegal and ruin your good name?

ISM: Oh yeah! Of course that's a big concern. Because all the cases you're seeing recently, all the riders being caught were working outside the team, but to the general public they were in the team. So yeah, that's a major concern. I've never been with a team with a positive case, but when I left Saunier Duval, they had a positive with Mayo. And then when I quit Astana, knowing that was an accident waiting to happen, a few months later, Vinokourov and Kashechkin.
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/inigo-san-millan


I believe Astana is not working with him. He is Brajkovič's physiologist.

thanks!

He was not fired, he quitted

Yeah, I was wondering about that. Because JV's account is this:

Do you know Inigo's history? do you know how he got kicked off all kinds of teams for trying to convert them to a non-doping philosophy?

(cant link it to the original post because the thread was closed) Of course, that's not necessarily contradictory with IsM quitting. ISM could simply have been asked to resign.

Anyway, on his CV and in several interviews IsM speaks of having guided one TdF winner. We still don't know who this TdF winner is, but I am now wondering whether it might be Contador he's referring to. The reason I thought of this is the Bill Gifford blog I just read where Bill visits San Millan:

one athlete stands out in particular, a young Spanish rider he tested almost 10 years ago. When the test got really hard, this rider stood up on the pedals, desperate. “Most of the time, that means the guy’s done, like in a minute or two,” San Millán says. This kid kept going out of the saddle for a full 25 minutes longer. His name was Alberto Contador, and his signature is on a yellow jersey in a frame behind San Millán’s desk.
http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/transcendent-pain

But then, as far as I can tell, San Millán never worked officially on any team that had Contador under contract at the same time. Of course both worked for Astana, but in different periods.
So perhaps, like with Brajkovic, San Millan has been a (independent) physiologist for Contador in either 2007 or 2009?
That would make sense in light of the fact that JV thought of hiring Contador on the personal recommendation of San Millán.

 

[MajorTom]

I am not sure and I don't like to speculate.

 

[sniper]

It's still speculative, but I think indeed he worked with Contador, at least, it is implied here,

We captured a few video clips from our visit to his CU-Denver office earlier in the week and were quite amazed with all the athlete personalities on his wall. They included: Alberto Contador, Joseba Beloki, Saunier-Duval, Astana, and ONCE cycling teams. http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...colorado-tour-contador-“strong-chance”_178729

and we do know he worked with all the other guys/teams on his wall.


Would be interesting to know, if at all he worked with AC, if that was in 2007 or 2009.
2007 could make sense, as Contador rode for Discovery that year where Allen Lim was working (wasn't he?). Allen Lim and San Millan are known to have been close in the past and still work together in Colorado.
http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/transcendent-pain
So we have Contador, Lim, San Millan, Discovery, Astana, Garmin, Vaughters all interconnected. It's a small step from those names to Bruyneel. (Recall also San Millan worked with ONCE back in the 90s, perhaps when Bruyneel still rode?).
Cloudy stuff. I would love to get a clearer picture.

p.s. I know the above sounds insinuating, but I'm not talking doping here. Just would very much like to know how these people are networked/interconnected.

 

[ToreBear]

thanks!



Yeah, I was wondering about that. Because JV's account is this:
(cant link it to the original post because the thread was closed) Of course, that's not necessarily contradictory with IsM quitting. ISM could simply have been asked to resign.

Anyway, on his CV and in several interviews IsM speaks of having guided one TdF winner. We still don't know who this TdF winner is, but I am now wondering whether it might be Contador he's referring to. The reason I thought of this is the Bill Gifford blog I just read where Bill visits San Millan:
But then, as far as I can tell, San Millán never worked officially on any team that had Contador under contract at the same time. Of course both worked for Astana, but in different periods.
So perhaps, like with Brajkovic, San Millan has been a (independent) physiologist for Contador in either 2007 or 2009?
That would make sense in light of the fact that JV thought of hiring Contador on the personal recommendation of San Millán.

Almost 10 years ago would be 2003. Perhaps a spanish team asked a spanish physiologist to see if he had talent or something before they gave him a contract? Perhaps they kept in touch and he gave contador tips?

Don't see any wrong in that.

On quitting/fired. There are things you say in public/vs private. "I was kicked out of the team because I kept pestering the riders to stop doping."

That would be a great headline grabber, but would be very bad for future hiring prospects.

As for Brajkovic, perhaps he was one of the guys that actually listened to him. His career judging from his palmares looks like one of slow improvement.

There is a lot of smoke in cycling. Is there one team without an ex doper employed somewhere in their organization?

 

[ToreBear]

It's still speculative, but I think indeed he worked with Contador, at least, it is implied here,
and we do know he worked with all the other guys/teams on his wall.


Would be interesting to know, if at all he worked with AC, if that was in 2007 or 2009.
2007 could make sense, as Contador rode for Discovery that year where Allen Lim was working (wasn't he?). Allen Lim and San Millan are known to have been close in the past and still work together in Colorado.
http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/transcendent-pain
So we have Contador, Lim, San Millan, Discovery, Astana, Garmin, Vaughters all interconnected. It's a small step from those names to Bruyneel. (Recall also San Millan worked with ONCE back in the 90s, perhaps when Bruyneel still rode?).
Cloudy stuff. I would love to get a clearer picture.

p.s. I know the above sounds insinuating, but I'm not talking doping here. Just would very much like to know how these people are networked/interconnected.

Their connection is profesional cycling. You don't need to look far before you wade through a ton of smoke. That is the sport. Hopefully with the Armstrong case panning out, we might get a better idea of were the fires were.

 

[sniper]

Almost 10 years ago would be 2003. Perhaps a spanish team asked a spanish physiologist to see if he had talent or something before they gave him a contract? Perhaps they kept in touch and he gave contador tips?

Don't see any wrong in that.

On quitting/fired. There are things you say in public/vs private. "I was kicked out of the team because I kept pestering the riders to stop doping."

That would be a great headline grabber, but would be very bad for future hiring prospects.

As for Brajkovic, perhaps he was one of the guys that actually listened to him. His career judging from his palmares looks like one of slow improvement.

There is a lot of smoke in cycling. Is there one team without an ex doper employed somewhere in their organization?

In full agreement with this post!

Their connection is profesional cycling. You don't need to look far before you wade through a ton of smoke. That is the sport. Hopefully with the Armstrong case panning out, we might get a better idea of were the fires were.

Yes. I think it 'd be good to see these links across cyclingteams, riders, DSs, and docs slowly becoming a bit more transparent. But you're basically right: these look like complex links, but in fact they just show how small the world of pro-cycling is.

 

[Campagnolo]

San Millan was team physiologist for ONCE in 02 or 03 whenever Contador turned pro. So he happened to be team physiologist for ONCE when Contador, a young talented amateur, turned pro (anything wrong with that?). He never worked for ONCE in the 90's as you state (you are not getting the facts right) He started working with ONCE as team physiologist performing physiological testing for only 2 years (02 and 03). Regarding Astana, he quit right when the season started and obviously he never worked for Astana again. This season he is collaborating, along with Dirk Firel, with Brajkovic as a consultant to Brajkovic for physiological testing and training advice, but not with Astana. Yes, he is working with Team United Healthcare since last year.

 

[Campagnolo]

Sniper,

San Millan was team physiologist for ONCE in 02 or 03 whenever Contador turned pro. So he happened to be team physiologist for ONCE when Contador, a young talented amateur, turned pro (As ToreBear states, nothing wrong with that). He never worked for ONCE in the 90's as you state (you are not getting the facts right). He started working with ONCE as team physiologist performing physiological testing for only 2 years (02 and 03).

Regarding Astana, he either quit or was fired in 2007 right when the season started and obviously he never worked for Astana again. This season he is collaborating, along with Dirk Firel, with Brajkovic as a consultant to Brajkovic for physiological testing and advice, but not with Astana. Friel (coach) and San Millan (physiologist) make a good team to give advice to a talented rider like Brajkovic. Yes, he is working with Team United Healthcare as team physiologist since last year but not related in any means to Garmin as you, again, wrongly state.

You get wrong another fact regarding Allen Lim and Discovery as he never worked with Discovery. Another wrong fact you get is that you state that Lim and San Millan work together…Just because you read in bicycling Gifford’s article that Lim and San Millan live in Colorado you simply cannot state that they work together. Colorado is a big state!

Anyways, please get the facts right, as many times you seem to be all over the place creating confusion through misleading information (hopefully not intentionally) as well as probably irritation which go against the norms and ethics of this forum. You started this post with a nicer style, politely asking questions and asserting that you won’t engage in a “heavy discussion thread” which is greately appreciated. However, a few posts later within this thread you go back to your style speculating and giving wrong facts (again, hopefully not intentionally) which create confusion. You say you don’t want to get into a heavy discussion thread but then state that Garmin-Astana-JV-Contador, Lim and San Millan are interconnected?…The whole Girona-Armstrong-USPS-Garmin-JV doping connection you kept stating in different posts got very old and I hope you don't try to get a new one with Garmin-Astana-Vino-JV-Girona

Please be careful with your assertions, speculations and your facts.

Thanks!.

 

[sniper]

Sniper,(...)
Thanks!.

Thanks alot Campagnolo for an informative post and for correcting me on two important issues (San Millan's time at ONCE and Lim not working for Discovery).
Yes, we have to

get the facts right

and it is why i opened the thread in the first place. Shedding light on Garmin's medical department seems to be a taboo issue to some, luckily not to you. Garmin's been telling us cycling is cleaning up, and it should be no secret that I'm interested in corroborating that claim. I personally don't think speculating about a doctor who has worked with Saiz, Contador, Vino, and other established dopers is in anyway against the ethics of the Clinic, but I might be wrong. At any rate, i should have had those facts regarding San Millán and Lim straight, that was sloppy though obviously not intentional.

Considering JV's outburst a few days ago, I'm slightly surprised to hear that San Millan is actually

not related in any means to Garmin

. The fact remains that he was in many means related to Garmin, joining Garmin in 2009 on the personal recommendation of a certain Allen Lim, with whom he developed training programs for Garmin throughout 2009. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/who-is-dr-inigo-san-millan
As for San Millan and Lim, the Gifford article (dated 2012 if i'm correct) suggests quite unambiguously that the two docs (SM and Lim) were in the same room at the same time when Gifford was there trying out those machines. So how can you be sure they aren't working together at present? It seems the opposite is true, unless Lim was there just to do a coffee with Gifford?

Thanks for the correction regarding San Millan-ONCE. But why do you speak of "only" two years? I think working for two years alongside Saiz, one of the biggest doping facilitators pre and post San Millan's ONCE period, is considerable.

As for San Millan and Contador, I've been specifically curious if San Millan has worked actively with Contador in the post-Puerto period (say, somewhere in between 2007-2010)? The yellow Contador yearsey on San Millan's wall seems to suggest so, but i can't find anything more explicit. Would you by any chance be in the know? And if it wasn't Contador, would you have an idea as to who the TdF winner mentioned among San Millán's credentials may have been?

His successes include six Pro Tour Cycling Teams, a Tour de France winner and 16 Grand Tours podium finishers.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...-at-the-university-of-colorado-128391453.html

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

Please be careful with your assertions, speculations and your facts.

Thanks!.

got any links to back it all up IsM?

 

[sniper]

Friel (coach) and San Millan (physiologist) make a good team to give advice to a talented rider like Brajkovic.

Brajkovic' team history + being a Bruyneel/Lance protege, doesn't promise a lot of cleanliness, but if you say IsM has made him see jesus, I believe you. If he's clean now, his 9th place in the TdF is all the more praiseworthy.

 

[sniper]

Yes, he is working with Team United Healthcare as team physiologist since last year but not related in any means to Garmin as you, again, wrongly state.

I noted that Greenedge, Garmin and United Healthcare are all based in Girona. And look at this list:
Matt White: now at Greenedge; at Garmin in 2008/9
Mark Quod: now at Greenedge and Garmin (2009-present)
San Millan: now at United Healthcare; formerly Garmin (2009-10)
Is it safe to say that Girona was and still is the place to be? Do they have better hospitals there?

In 2009 Garmin had San Millan and Quod, two docs/physiologists, working together in Girona (though San Millan only visiting occasionally, while Quod was/is stationed there). http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/who-is-dr-inigo-san-millan
The funny thing is that Matt White nonetheless for some reason decided to send Lowe to a doctor from outside (Del Moral).
Could it be that San Millan and Quod did actually have a strong anti-doping stance, thus forcing White to send Lowe to an outsider for his juice, knowing that ISM and Quod weren't gonna cooperate? Or is it more plausible to assume everybody (including ISM and Quod) was in the know about White's decision? (I personally never followed the White-Lowe-Del Moral story, and have no idea whether the Clinic ever reached a consensus on that issue, in terms of whether JV was or was not in the know about Del Moral)

More generally, what do you guys make of Greenedge? Is White's appointment there reason enough to doubt the whole team?

 

[sniper]

Yes, he is working with Team United Healthcare as team physiologist since last year but not related in any means to Garmin as you, again, wrongly state.

I noted that Greenedge, Garmin and United Healthcare are all based in Girona. And look at this list:
Matt White: now at Greenedge; at Garmin in 2008/9
Mark Quod: now at Greenedge and Garmin (2009-present)
San Millan: now at United Healthcare; formerly Garmin (2009-10)
Is it safe to say that Girona was and still is the place to be? Do they have better hospitals there?

In 2009 Garmin had San Millan, Quod and Gonzalez Haro, three docs/physiologists, working together in Girona (though San Millan only visiting occasionally, while Quod and Gonzalez Haro were stationed there). http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/who-is-dr-inigo-san-millan
The funny thing is that Matt White nonetheless for some reason decided to send Lowe to a doctor from outside (Del Moral).
Could it be that San Millan, Quod and Gonzalez Haro did actually have a strong anti-doping stance, thus forcing White to send Lowe to an outsider for his juice, knowing that his own Garmin docs weren't gonna allow any juicing? Or is it more plausible to assume the Garmin docs were in the know about White's decision? (I personally never followed the White-Lowe-Del Moral story, and have no idea whether the Clinic ever reached a consensus on that issue, in terms of whether JV was or was not in the know about Lowe-Del Moral)

More generally, what do you guys make of Greenedge? Is White's appointment there reason enough to doubt the whole team?

 

[Benotti69]

I noted that Greenedge, Garmin and United Healthcare are all based in Girona. And look at this list:
Matt White: now at Greenedge; at Garmin in 2008/9
Mark Quod: now at Greenedge and Garmin (2009-present)
San Millan: now at United Healthcare; formerly Garmin (2009-10)
Is it safe to say that Girona was and still is the place to be? Do they have better hospitals there?

In 2009 Garmin had San Millan, Quod and Gonzalez Haro, three docs/physiologists, working together in Girona (though San Millan only visiting occasionally, while Quod and Gonzalez Haro were stationed there). http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/who-is-dr-inigo-san-millan
The funny thing is that Matt White nonetheless for some reason decided to send Lowe to a doctor from outside (Del Moral).
Could it be that San Millan, Quod and Gonzalez Haro did actually have a strong anti-doping stance, thus forcing White to send Lowe to an outsider for his juice, knowing that his own Garmin docs weren't gonna allow any juicing? Or is it more plausible to assume the Garmin docs were in the know about White's decision? (I personally never followed the White-Lowe-Del Moral story, and have no idea whether the Clinic ever reached a consensus on that issue, in terms of whether JV was or was not in the know about Lowe-Del Moral)

More generally, what do you guys make of Greenedge? Is White's appointment there reason enough to doubt the whole team?

It was a messy thread, which could've been cleared up with a post by JV, but all we got was the usual.

 

[sniper]

It was a messy thread, which could've been cleared up with a post by JV, but all we got was the usual.

cheers!
....

 

[Nilsson]

This is a pretty ****ty topic. Not the greatest research and not very respectful to Iñigo San Millán, who since he's the director of the Colorado Human Performance Lab doesn't focus entirely on one team anymore. In his current capacity, however, he does the testing for UHC and (also advises) individual riders - or (their) coaches, who are often Colorado based. Two riders he works closely with are UHC's Rory Sutherland and CFS-talent Lachlan Morton.

With respect tot Contador. Yes, he knows him. It was Iñigo San Millán who tested the young Contador, and discovered his phenomenal talent. Contador was just a young kid when he totally astonished San Millán, because he exceeded ONCE's testing protocol. Contador simpley blew his mind of.

It was, indeed, San Millán who played a major role in potentially getting AC on board at Garmin during 2009 (because AC wasn't happy with Astana) and he has given Vaughters insight in AC's testing results, physical data, etc. In the end it didn't happen though. Contador couldn't leave Astana, not before the Tour, and not after that season. Everybody knows what happened after that, but it wouldn't surprise me they were close(r) during that period, and that Contador has thanked him for that with a yellow jersey. My guess, therefore, is that it's a 2009 jersey, although I'm not sure, because I haven't seen the jersey.

 

[sniper]

This is a pretty ****ty topic. Not the greatest research and not very respectful to Iñigo San Millán, who since he's the director of the Colorado Human Performance Lab doesn't focus entirely on one team anymore. In his current capacity, however, he does the testing for UHC and (also advises) individual riders - or (their) coaches, who are often Colorado based. Two riders he works closely with are UHC's Rory Sutherland and CFS-talent Lachlan Morton.

With respect tot Contador. Yes, he knows him. It was Iñigo San Millán who tested the young Contador, and discovered his phenomenal talent. Contador was just a young kid when he totally astonished San Millán, because he exceeded ONCE's testing protocol. Contador simpley blew his mind of.

It was, indeed, San Millán who played a major role in potentially getting AC on board at Garmin during 2009 (because AC wasn't happy with Astana) and he has given Vaughters insight in AC's testing results, physical data, etc. In the end it didn't happen though. Contador couldn't leave Astana, not before the Tour, and not after that season. Everybody knows what happened after that, but it wouldn't surprise me they were close(r) during that period, and that Contador has thanked him for that with a yellow jersey. My guess, therefore, is that it's a 2009 jersey, although I'm not sure, because I haven't seen the jersey.

Thanks Nilsson! Great detail in that post. Appreciated.

You're right, I haven't been able to put much research into this. The facts are that SM has worked closely with a couple of dope DSs and with a couple of caught dopers and at present continues to work closely with at least one caught doper (Sutherland, at UHC) and with Brajkovic, a (former) Bruyneel/Armstrong protégé. Also, he worked with Celaya at ONCE for two years (2002/03), and rather closely with Lim at Garmin (and beyond). And we still don't know who the TdF winner is that stars on San Millan's palmares (or the 16 GT podium finishers).

More generally regarding Garmin: as one poster in another thread said, it would be revealing to learn why teams have so many docs on board with roughly the same expertise. Garmin in 2009 had ISM, Gonzalez Haro, and Mark Quod, (not counting Lim, who is not really a doc, but was at Garmin in 2009). Those are 3 guys with roughly the same qualifications. Is that necessary?
And how did Matt White come up with the brilliant plan to bypass all three Garmin docs and send Lowe to an outsider (Del Moral)? Note that this can also be explained in Garmin's favor. Perhaps those three docs refused to supply and/or administer doping, compelling White and Lowe to look for the juice elsewhere?

 

[Runitout]

...

More generally regarding Garmin: as one poster in another thread said, it would be revealing to learn why teams have so many docs on board with roughly the same expertise. Garmin in 2009 had ISM, Gonzalez Haro, and Mark Quod, (not counting Lim, who is not really a doc, but was at Garmin in 2009). Those are 3 guys with roughly the same qualifications. Is that necessary?
And how did Matt White come up with the brilliant plan to bypass all three Garmin docs and send Lowe to an outsider (Del Moral)? Note that this can also be explained in Garmin's favor. Perhaps those three docs refused to supply and/or administer doping, compelling White and Lowe to look for the juice elsewhere?

You are barking totally up the wrong tree there.

The test was the compulsory UCI quarterly health check. Lowe was sick, and the test hadn't yet been done. Del Moral, for all his faults, did the right thing on that occasion. None of the other team docs were based in Valencia, where Lowe (and I think White, and a few other riders) lived. I believe (but could be wrong) that Del Moral was the only sports doc in Valencia qualified to do the quarterly testing.

Sometimes doping doctors actually behave like doctors, too. If White wanted to send him to dope, sending the results of his blood to WADA and the UCI would be a pretty bad way to do it.

The scandal around that episode wasn't that Lowe had his UCI mandated quarterly check - it was that almost none of his other ones had invovled the required physical assessment in the previous 18months or so, meaning that the team has missed him getting chronic fatigue on their watch.

JV made it worse by pretending he wasn't told about the testing (wrong), that the test was a breach of a policy (wrong - that policy didn't exist that the time of the test, which was a UCI required test), and implying he didn't need a doctor to perform the test (also wrong).

Lowe's own email the next year to JV showed he was ****ed off about being sent to DM - bear in mind that in the intervening period Landis had gone public about Del Moral's past. You wouldn't be sending an email like that to your avowedly anti-doping DS if you wanted to hide the episode under the carpet. (If he was trying to show JV how loyal he was, however, I'd say it kind of backfired...)

There was a 20 page document floating around the web detailing all of this.

JV then fired White for breach of the non-existent policy. If you want to know why, ask Kimmage...

None of this is to say that all of Garmin were dope-free. I don't believe they were - but that episode was more about JV hackhandedly trying to stifle bad press than it was about a genuine doping conspiracy. I also believe that there was no team organised doping programme operating at Garmin back then.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Garmin in 2009 had ISM

2010/2011 to be correct.

What interests me the most is why Brajkovic isn't doing his testing within his own team, doesn't he think Andreazzoli, Pallini and Uliari are trustworthy enough?

Nice info on the del Moral 'case' runitout.

 

[hrotha]

I really don't get the whole Girona thing. It's not like you breathe EPO there.

JV then fired White for breach of the non-existent policy. If you want to know why, ask Kimmage...

Well, since to the best of my knowledge Kimmage doesn't post here, I'll ask you: why was White fired?

 

[Runitout]

I really don't get the whole Girona thing. It's not like you breathe EPO there.

Well, since to the best of my knowledge Kimmage doesn't post here, I'll ask you: why was White fired?

Sorry; I can't tell you.

 

[hrotha]

Sorry; I can't tell you.

And people wonder why we often have to make wild guesses that are way off the mark...

 

[Runitout]

And people wonder why we often have to make wild guesses that are way off the mark...

Fair point.