• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Sea Turtle Haemoglobin?

May 20, 2010
119
0
0
Visit site
Different ethos or mores between Lemond and Armstrong. Assuming for the sake of argument that Armstrong is guilty of the doping accuasations, then his apparent ability to be unfazed by it all may be indication of a deeper psychopathic tendency. The inability to show remorse, etc.
 
May 7, 2009
1,282
0
0
Visit site
Lemond sure doesn’t pull any punches in that article. He does not seem to be afraid of the Armstrong PR machine. Could he have been emboldened by the Trek lawsuit outcome or the current Landis investigation?

Slightly off-topic: will statements like this help turn even more Lance fans into Lemond haters? Just shows you what a stupid term “hater” really is….
 
Apr 28, 2009
493
0
0
Visit site
Deagol said:
Lemond sure doesn’t pull any punches in that article. He does not seem to be afraid of the Armstrong PR machine. Could he have been emboldened by the Trek lawsuit outcome or the current Landis investigation?

Slightly off-topic: will statements like this help turn even more Lance fans into Lemond haters? Just shows you what a stupid term “hater” really is….

that's been happening for years now - just look at this forum with new posters trying to imply that LeMond doped.
 
May 7, 2009
1,282
0
0
Visit site
callac said:
I really wouldn't say that it is a new thing... :rolleyes:

True, but now I think even moreso? Also, that Cyclingnews published this seems to be a slight turning of the tide against LA.
Still funny though how much of the (US) media is helping sell the "Team GC" win thing for Radioshack, but I think this is a small thing in comparrison.
Just saying that CN publishing GL's very anti-Lance article seems to be somehwat significant. I could be wrong, though... :confused:
 
Feb 21, 2010
1,007
0
0
Visit site
Can anyone blame Lemond for saying he shied away from the "drugs" (if they can even be called that) of the era if they are composed of sea turtle or crocodile blood?

Sounds such a voodoo thing. Surprised that given the previous popularity of the Jamaican bobsled team, they do not already have a specific test for reptilian blood boosters. Usain Bolt, what say you on the topic?
 
Jul 23, 2010
270
0
0
Visit site
Lemond....what a complete tool

Is there anything in Lemond's blog which is not based entirely on speculation, innuendo, rumor, hearsay, i.e., something he "read" elsewhere or "heard" from others?

If this is the best that Novitzky's going to have, then Lance truly has not much to be concerned about.


*******************************
"...This is where Lance Armstrong stands apart. He seems unfazed by accusations of doping.. . . "

"I was hearing stories back as early as 1993 about Dr. Ferrari and his client list. . . "

"It was said that Dr. Ferrari. . . "

"I am not sure if the numbers are correct, but the rumor was that. . . "

"I remember reading the autobiography of French rider. . . "

"Years later, I was reading an article about how the Chinese. . . "

"I have read about coaches and trainers contacting. . ."

"It is stories like this that influenced my opinion of Lance. . . "

"I knew too much to comment otherwise by July 2001.. . . "

"I had closely followed . . . the information that was well known about these types of doctor/patient relationships. . . "
*******************************************************

What a complete tool. Every sentence, every paragraph, the entire "blog" is filled with nonsense.

Anyone wanna buy a Lemond titanium mountain bike, circa '94 real cheap? (It's actually a Lightspeed manufactured for Lemond)
 
Jan 18, 2010
277
0
0
Visit site
mortailcoil said:
Sea Turtle and Crocodile hemoglobin producing the TT of your life? I would be more interested to see why and how it works.
I had that wrong...

Crocodile hemoglobin releases O2 into tissues when bicarbonate binds to it. Bicarbonate is the end product of respiration so it's always around.
So a little bit would go a long way in increasing tissue O2 levels.

Hemoglobin is the oxygen carrying protein in red blood cells, for those who didn't know.

I don't know anything about the immune response to foreign hemoglobin in your bloodstream, but I would guess there is one.

See p. 211 in the link
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2548669/?tool=pmcentrez
 
Jul 6, 2010
99
0
0
Visit site
Is there anything in Lemond's blog which is not based entirely on speculation, innuendo, rumor, hearsay, i.e., something he "read" elsewhere or "heard" from others?
Indeed, he has only heard LA's mechanic telling him directly what was going on, he has only heard threats on his phone :rolleyes:... He wasn't on the bus or in hotel rooms with USPS or Discovery, nor did he use the same doctors. Totally unreliable guy!
 

Polish

BANNED
Mar 11, 2009
3,853
0
0
Visit site
Deagol said:
Slightly off-topic: will statements like this help turn even more Lance fans into Lemond haters? Just shows you what a stupid term “hater” really is….

I would argue the whole "Hater Movement" burst into being because of the Lance/LeMond dynamic that began with Lance's ties with Ferarri and Greg's subsequent "disappointment".

I do not remember hate during the 1990's.
Great racing and lots and lots of EPO.

There was a little hate in the 1980's with LeMond/Hinault,
but nothing like today. Lots and lots of doping though.
 
Jul 15, 2010
53
0
0
Visit site
biokemguy said:
If I dig out my general biochemistry text, it says that hemoglobin from these species has a higher affinity (holds onto oxygen tighter) for oxygen than human hemoglobin.
So a little bit would go a long way in increasing blood O2 levels.

Hemoglobin is the oxygen carrying protein in red blood cells, for those who didn't know.

I don't know anything about the immune response to foreign hemoglobin in your bloodstream, but I would guess there is one.

And how much volume of this would a human need? The story makes the dosage out to be in the form of a vial or potion, which suggests rather limited quantities than would be needed for a 5-6 Litre total blood volume of a human being.
 
Jun 15, 2009
353
0
0
Visit site
QuickStepper said:
Is there anything in Lemond's blog which is not based entirely on speculation, innuendo, rumor, hearsay, i.e., something he "read" elsewhere or "heard" from others?

If this is the best that Novitzky's going to have, then Lance truly has not much to be concerned about.

Ummm, for some reason I don't think that the federal investigator who went 10-for-11 in the BALCO case will be relying exclusively on GL. The only thing for which GL has been served a subpoena is documentation relating to the Trek lawsuit. At this point, whatever GL has to say bout LA is not yet on the Feds' radar.
 
biokemguy said:
If I dig out my general biochemistry text, it says that hemoglobin from these species has a higher affinity (holds onto oxygen tighter) for oxygen than human hemoglobin.
So a little bit would go a long way in increasing blood O2 levels.

Hemoglobin is the oxygen carrying protein in red blood cells, for those who didn't know.

I don't know anything about the immune response to foreign hemoglobin in your bloodstream, but I would guess there is one.

More to it than that:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0964.htm

there are scholarly articles, but they're all chemistry...
 
Jan 18, 2010
277
0
0
Visit site
mortailcoil said:
And how much volume of this would a human need? The story makes the dosage out to be in the form of a vial or potion, which suggests rather limited quantities than would be needed for a 5-6 Litre total blood volume of a human being.

No idea, It would depend largely on the concentration of the protein. Since it's not whole cells being injected as is the case with 'regular' blood doping the volume could be rather small and still lead to a noticeable effect.

There's also the placebo effect that was mentioned.

Crocodile hemoglobin was pursued for a while as a cell free blood substitute.
 
Mar 16, 2009
19,482
2
0
ellobodelmar.spaces.live.com
Crocodiles is so 20th century. Come to the 21st century.
Could you extract a few stem cells a manufacture your own blood?
Is this possible? would blood made from your own stem cells be undetectable? or is the amount of stems cells needed prohibitive.

Artificial blood developed

The blood is made from hematopoietic stem cells from discarded human umbilical cords, which are turned into large quantities of red blood cells by a method called "blood pharming" that mimics the functions of bone marrow. Pharming is a method of using genetically engineered plants or animals to create medically useful substances in large quantities. Using this process the cells from one umbilical cord can produce about 20 units of blood, which is enough for over three transfusions for injured soldiers in the field.

Probably not today but in the future?
 
Jul 23, 2010
270
0
0
Visit site
Ummm, for some reason I don't think that the federal investigator who went 10-for-11 in the BALCO case will be relying exclusively on GL

Ummmm, let's be clear about this "record" of the wonderful Mr. Novitzky. He intimidated 8 of those 10 into pleading guilty to minor charges. No one, other than Victor Conte and Marion Jones, actually served a day in prison for anything related to drugs. Conte only served 3 months in jail for "laundering" $100 (and another 3 months of in-home monitoring). Marion Jones didn't plead to anything other than lying to a federal investigator (yeah, that's bad, but Novitzky didn't nail her for actual drug use, and look, she's now making a nice living in the WNBA; her real criminal problems actually stemmed from a check-forgery ring she and her former track coach were involved with). She served 6 months, and got two years probation.

And the one guy who was actually convicted and served the longest prison term as a result of Novitzky's big investigation? It was one of the lawyers who represented a target of the investigation who was convicted for leaking confidential transcripts of the Grand Jury proceedings to two reporters from the S.F. Chronicle (who not coincidentally wrote a book about the testimony, making themselves a nice little profit...but interestingly they were not prosecuted). And the "big fish" that Novitzky was after, Barry Bonds? He walked.... Novitzky himself was investigated by the IRS CI unit (i.e., "Internal Affairs") for manufacturing evidence, falsifying affidavits in support of search warrants, theft of funds that had been impounded, etc., and it was because of his misconduct that Bonds will never see the inside of a courtroom. If you don't believe the feds will have a microscope up Novitzky's a** this time again, you're dreaming. He wasn't formally charged by the feds for any of his misconduct, but his misconduct is why he left his "dream job" at the IRS and moved over the FDA....No one in a real position of power in the Federal government, especially with the current state of our economy, is going let him spend tens of millions of dollars chasing something that happened close to ten years ago in Europe and over which the FDA really has no jurisdiction.

And don't even get started talking about that "fearsome" prosecutor the papers have reported Novitzky is working with, Douglas Miller, a 2005 California Bar admittee, with all of about four years of active criminal law practice experience. That's the "big cheese" federal prosecutor? The guy who is going to take down Armstrong? Puhleeze. He's a baby lawyer who has probably has worked mostly plea bargains. I haven't looked on Lexis-Nexis or Westlaw, but I'm willing to wager a hefty sum that his actual federal jury trial experience is close to nil.

Novitzky is in way over his head this time. Way beyond his mandate. Just wait until the real political pressure begins when the FDA realizes how much money and resources is being devoted to this wild-goose chase. And believe me, I happen to work with and know several FDA criminal investigators (who spend their days in undercover operations going after phony pharmacueticals, fake prescription drugs that are made in China and contain wallboard...the stuff that really harms everyday Americans), and Novitzky and his crew are, to use Tim Herman's phrase, pretty far off the reservation. Novitzky wasted close to $50 million last time investigating the use of THG (the "clear") which actually wasn't even illegal at the time. Think his bosses are going to let him do waste that sort of money again? Better re-think that scenario.

And even more interestingly, many here in the Clinic seem to think that it's some sort of sign that LA is "guilty" because he's retained an experienced former federal prosecutor with 25 years of experience. Keep in mind that Bryan Daly was hired not to "defend" Armstrong, but simply to find out what the real subject is of the investigation. Why? Because no one with any real inside information has actually spoken publicly for attribution yet, and no one has actually verified what the real scope or even the subject of the investigation may be. It could be as simple as investigating Landis. It could be looking at LeMond's financing of Landis' new legal defense (it's going to be pretty interesting when the Wilson, Sonsini firm has to sort out the conflict of interest they now have because of their representation of both Landis and Lemond...but that's another story).

The point is that other than what we've read in the newpapers, or heard from that clown Lemond, no one really knows anything yet about what is being investigated. Maybe we'll all find out something tonight when Landis speaks on ABC Nightline...but I doubt it. Just more bullsh*t from an admitted perjurer trying to salve his own conscience and take down others with him.
 
Jul 23, 2010
270
0
0
Visit site
Moose:

I am not "BPC". I don't know who that is. I happen to be a California lawyer, a cyclist, and someone who followed the Balco debacle closely. Flame me all you want. But I'm certainly not who you think. I'm just a guy with a different point of view (evidently) than you, who has been around the block more than a few times with the justice system and happen to know how things work.

Right now there's a feeding frenzy, created mostly by the Rupert Murdoch-owned WSJ, which has run wild with the Landis nonsense, and as a result, every other major media outlet in the country (actually mostly just wire service reports) have picked up the story. Look at a more respected paper though like the Los Angeles Times....you won't find hardly a word about this...and don't you think that's strange...the hometown paper where this alleged "investigation" is taking place isn't even reporting it. Go figure.

Let's put it this way. Bryan Daly and the other white-collar guys at Sheppard Mullin have forgotten more about criminal law than Douglas Miller ever knew. You're right though, this is going to be fun to watch.