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Sex, Gender and related issues

Jan 3, 2012
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This thread was created by King Boonen on the separation of two subjects. Please do not link real people to the discussion where it is inappropriate. An attempt was made to keep the thread of the discussion while removing names etc. from posts. Hopefully it was successful.

*This discussion originated from a discussion about someone's transgender announcement.*

Thoughts?
Is it a positive, brave move?
Do you not care?
Do you think it is wrong?

I am hoping we can have a genuine discussion, whether you are for or against, without getting personal or espousing vile hatred.
Let's use this forum to discuss our opinions in a civilised manner and exercise our right to freedom of speech in the way we are supposed to :razz:
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Gender, sex and related issues.

Ruby United said:
Thoughts?
Is it a positive, brave move?
Do you not care?
Do you think it is wrong?

I am hoping we can have a genuine discussion, whether you are for or against, without getting personal or espousing vile hatred.
Let's use this forum to discuss our opinions in a civilised manner and exercise our right to freedom of speech in the way we are supposed to :razz:
nothing new or shocking. It's a brave move, I'm not terribly interested gender reassignment per se

It's not about being right or wrong imo. It's about the ability of all of us to live and let live. Finding happiness seems to be at the root of this and why should that be denied?
 
Jan 3, 2012
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Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

Scott SoCal said:
Ruby United said:
Thoughts?
Is it a positive, brave move?
Do you not care?
Do you think it is wrong?

I am hoping we can have a genuine discussion, whether you are for or against, without getting personal or espousing vile hatred.
Let's use this forum to discuss our opinions in a civilised manner and exercise our right to freedom of speech in the way we are supposed to :razz:
It's not about being right or wrong imo. It's about the ability of all of us to live and let live. Finding happiness seems to be at the root of this and why should that be denied?
The problem with this argument is that suicide rates among transgender people are almost the same whether or not they change their gender or not, according to studies I have read.
This indicates that changing gender does not increase the happiness of the person.
The suicide rates among transgenders is tragic, north of 40% - an amount that no other faction, race or group in history compares with as far as I am aware.
So the big questions are: Why is transgender suicide rates so tragically high? And why is the post-gender-change suicide rates almost the same?
 
Re suicide, maybe because the stigma from society is overwhelming regardless of gender change. Even if the change makes one happier, the increased risk for hate crime doesn't.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

Ruby United said:
Scott SoCal said:
Ruby United said:
Thoughts?
Is it a positive, brave move?
Do you not care?
Do you think it is wrong?

I am hoping we can have a genuine discussion, whether you are for or against, without getting personal or espousing vile hatred.
Let's use this forum to discuss our opinions in a civilised manner and exercise our right to freedom of speech in the way we are supposed to :razz:
It's not about being right or wrong imo. It's about the ability of all of us to live and let live. Finding happiness seems to be at the root of this and why should that be denied?
The problem with this argument is that suicide rates among transgender people are almost the same whether or not they change their gender or not, according to studies I have read.
This indicates that changing gender does not increase the happiness of the person.
The suicide rates among transgenders is tragic, north of 40% - an amount that no other faction, race or group in history compares with as far as I am aware.
So the big questions are: Why is transgender suicide rates so tragically high? And why is the post-gender-change suicide rates almost the same?
I think there's quite a bit of CDC research showing a pretty big life span decrease for the LGBT community... particularly gay males. Lots of stated reasons for it including suicide.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Re:

Netserk said:
Re suicide, maybe because the stigma from society is overwhelming regardless of gender change. Even if the change makes one happier, the increased risk for hate crime doesn't.
That's true but it's also driven by lifestyle. Coping mechanisms that include increased drug and alcohol abuse appears to be a big driver.
 
The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.


Philippa has nothing but the best most positive thoughts from me.
 
Aug 9, 2012
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Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

Ruby United said:
Scott SoCal said:
Ruby United said:
Thoughts?
Is it a positive, brave move?
Do you not care?
Do you think it is wrong?

I am hoping we can have a genuine discussion, whether you are for or against, without getting personal or espousing vile hatred.
Let's use this forum to discuss our opinions in a civilised manner and exercise our right to freedom of speech in the way we are supposed to :razz:
It's not about being right or wrong imo. It's about the ability of all of us to live and let live. Finding happiness seems to be at the root of this and why should that be denied?
The problem with this argument is that suicide rates among transgender people are almost the same whether or not they change their gender or not, according to studies I have read.
This indicates that changing gender does not increase the happiness of the person.
The suicide rates among transgenders is tragic, north of 40% - an amount that no other faction, race or group in history compares with as far as I am aware.
So the big questions are: Why is transgender suicide rates so tragically high? And why is the post-gender-change suicide rates almost the same?
Correlation does not equal causation. Transgender is a complex subject and the term itself includes several different scenarios. For example transgender people can both have XX and XY chromosomes. So it's a pretty big tent.

As for reason for high suicide rates, I think it's because gender is such an integral part in our identity. And the problems arising from problems with it can be immense.

Take this: If you were to identify your self, you would likely list your gender as your most important feature.

Lets say: my name is xroft (notice names are often a cue to identify gender)
I am a man/woman
I am xx years old
I am hetero/homo sexual.
I am married/unmarried.
I have xx children.
I work at xx.
I like to ride my bicycle.
I love soap operas.

Imagine confusion or change with the primary identifier except for you name. Now imagine the turmoil you might feel if you lost your job. or suffered a change in any of the categories above work.

Anyway, that Jenner thing probably has lessened the social stigma.

Lucky I came across this thread. Now I know that articles by Phillipa York=Robert Millar=a good read.
 
Jan 3, 2012
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Re:

Catwhoorg said:
The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.


Philippa has nothing but the best most positive thoughts from me.
No faction in history has had anywhere close to as high a suicide rate. Blacks in slavery, women without rights and even Jews in the Holocaust have a lower suicide rate. There is NO ways Transgenders are discriminated against more than Jews in the Holocaust where 6 million were massacred under the auspices of a genocidal maniac.
It's hard to argue, knowing this, that there Transgender isn't linked to a mental illness.
How, through logic, can you argue for the 40+% suicide rate.
 
Re: Re:

Ruby United said:
Catwhoorg said:
The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.


Philippa has nothing but the best most positive thoughts from me.
No faction in history has had anywhere close to as high a suicide rate. Blacks in slavery, women without rights and even Jews in the Holocaust have a lower suicide rate. There is NO ways Transgenders are discriminated against more than Jews in the Holocaust where 6 million were massacred under the auspices of a genocidal maniac.
It's hard to argue, knowing this, that there Transgender isn't linked to a mental illness.
How, through logic, can you argue for the 40+% suicide rate.
Wow.

:surprised:

I'd advice you to be a little bit more humble when concluding that a particular high suicide rate means that transgenders are mentally ill.
 
I'm not an expert in this area, but I would also comment that the 40% figure is the rate for suicide attempts. (which is about 10x the figure for the whole population of ~4%).


But discussing the details of it, is not the I am sure the intent of the thread.

As I said before best thoughts to Philippa and her future.
 
Re:

Catwhoorg said:
I'm not an expert in this area, but I would also comment that the 40% figure is the rate for suicide attempts. (which is about 10x the figure for the whole population of ~4%).


But discussing the details of it, is not the I am sure the intent of the thread.

As I said before best thoughts to Philippa and her future.
No expert either, but from what I've heard, if you don't do the process with proper medical guidance you can mess up your hormones pretty bad, which might be a contributing factor.
 
Re: Re:

Ruby United said:
It's hard to argue, knowing this, that there Transgender isn't linked to a mental illness. How, through logic, can you argue for the 40+% suicide rate.
You're going to need to clarify that. Are you saying mental illness because of societal pressure? Or from the decisions people make about sexual orientation? If the latter, if you can show peer reviewed endocrinology studies (or even non peer reviewed, but ones from respected authors) showing that nothing physiological or hormonal impacts any of these people's decisions, and it's all psychological, please share. If not, I recommend you be very cautious about what you post.
 
Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

The mentally ill argument mainly comes from the evangelicals--I.e. the same people who think there's a god in the sky and the earth came to be 4000 years ago. The same people who believe that a virgin gave birth to a baby.
The same people who believe that every single one of us are sinners.
I don't believe people like that have a right to say who is and who is not mentally ill.
I'm so glad we live in a society where people like Phillipa can express themselves however they see fit. I wish nothing but the best for her and anyone else who has to deal with the nonsense spouted by those whose beliefs are rooted in fiction.
 
Re:

Catwhoorg said:
The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.


Philippa has nothing but the best most positive thoughts from me.
This.

Not only is there very little understanding and/or acceptance of transgender peoples, there's also a high murder rate of them. (Well, at least here in the States it seems to be.)

While I am not transgender myself I do consider myself to be their ally.
 
Jan 3, 2012
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Re: Re:

Netserk said:
Ruby United said:
Catwhoorg said:
The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.


Philippa has nothing but the best most positive thoughts from me.
No faction in history has had anywhere close to as high a suicide rate. Blacks in slavery, women without rights and even Jews in the Holocaust have a lower suicide rate. There is NO ways Transgenders are discriminated against more than Jews in the Holocaust where 6 million were massacred under the auspices of a genocidal maniac.
It's hard to argue, knowing this, that there Transgender isn't linked to a mental illness.
How, through logic, can you argue for the 40+% suicide rate.
Wow.

:surprised:

I'd advice you to be a little bit more humble when concluding that a particular high suicide rate means that transgenders are mentally ill.
I knew my opinion - based on facts - would not be popular.
That does not make it any less true.
Though I appreciate the fact that the conversation has remained civil.
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

Ruby United said:
Netserk said:
Ruby United said:
Catwhoorg said:
The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.


Philippa has nothing but the best most positive thoughts from me.
No faction in history has had anywhere close to as high a suicide rate. Blacks in slavery, women without rights and even Jews in the Holocaust have a lower suicide rate. There is NO ways Transgenders are discriminated against more than Jews in the Holocaust where 6 million were massacred under the auspices of a genocidal maniac.
It's hard to argue, knowing this, that there Transgender isn't linked to a mental illness.
How, through logic, can you argue for the 40+% suicide rate.
Wow.

:surprised:

I'd advice you to be a little bit more humble when concluding that a particular high suicide rate means that transgenders are mentally ill.
I knew my opinion - based on facts - would not be popular.
That does not make it any less true.
Though I appreciate the fact that the conversation has remained civil.
Being transgender does not equate to being mentally ill.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/the-truth-about-transgend_b_8564834.html

Cant be easy to live trapped in the body of the opposite sex. I think it would drive a lot of people to suicide.
 
Jan 3, 2012
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Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

the delgados said:
The mentally ill argument mainly comes from the evangelicals--I.e. the same people who think there's a god in the sky and the earth came to be 4000 years ago. The same people who believe that a virgin gave birth to a baby.
The same people who believe that every single one of us are sinners.
I don't believe people like that have a right to say who is and who is not mentally ill.
A typical case of someone arguing a point based on people who have the same belief as that particular point.
Argue with the argument, not the arguer.
I am not an evangelical - though I am still confused about the relevance of that - and all debates should be argued through logic and facts.
 
Jan 3, 2012
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Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Being transgender does not equate to being mentally ill.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/the-truth-about-transgend_b_8564834.html

Cant be easy to live trapped in the body of the opposite sex. I think it would drive a lot of people to suicide. But i think that Pippa York has found acceptance and has a great outlook and again wish her well and the best for the future.
I read that article several months ago and was thoroughly unconvinced by it for numerous reasons.
 
Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

Ruby United said:
the delgados said:
The mentally ill argument mainly comes from the evangelicals--I.e. the same people who think there's a god in the sky and the earth came to be 4000 years ago. The same people who believe that a virgin gave birth to a baby.
The same people who believe that every single one of us are sinners.
I don't believe people like that have a right to say who is and who is not mentally ill.
A typical case of someone arguing a point based on people who have the same belief as that particular point.
Argue with the argument, not the arguer.
I am not an evangelical - though I am still confused about the relevance of that - and all debates should be argued through logic and facts.
Agreed-- All debates should be argued through logic and fact.
The only opposition I've ever encountered was defending a transgender friend who is accomplished, smart and kind against distant evangelical family members who insist she is mentally ill.
That's my experience. My point being is they are not in a position to diagnose mental illness.
Unless you are a doctor, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest neither are you.
Edited to ask a question: What is your point of even bringing up the topic?
I'm an atheist who cannot wrap my head around people who believe the points I mentioned previously. It's like talking to a rational person at a party who meanders off and starts talking about Santa sliding down the chimney. That's how weird it is. Yet I don't complain. You our anyone else can believe what you want to believe as long as you do't hurt others.
 
Ruby United said:
No faction in history has had anywhere close to as high a suicide rate. Blacks in slavery, women without rights and even Jews in the Holocaust have a lower suicide rate. There is NO ways Transgenders are discriminated against more than Jews in the Holocaust where 6 million were massacred under the auspices of a genocidal maniac.
There’s a very obvious difference between blacks, women and Jews, on the one hand, and transgenders, on the other. Members of the former classes have never questioned their identity. They were born as members of those minorities, with the exception of a relatively small number of people who convert to Judaism, and are not faced with any ambiguity, choice, conflict or guilt about it. They know who they are, and for better or worse, know there is nothing they can do about it. While they may have been considered inferior, their right to exist—certainly in the case of women and blacks—has never been questioned.

Jews may be a little different in that regard, but they also have a very strong social support system, based on a sacred tradition that transgenders lack. Jews in the concentration camps facing death could at least be comforted by belonging to a major religion that they felt would survive. Transgenders have never had the advantage of this support. They are far more psychologically isolated. Even now, when social acceptance is growing, they have to build a social history that Jews are born into.

It's hard to argue, knowing this, that there (sic) Transgender isn't linked to a mental illness.
I think Alpe’s response to this is excellent. If one regards attempted suicide as an expression of mental illness, then by definition transgender is linked to mental illness. But the word “link” is often used to imply a genetic or other biological association, and there is no evidence of one I’m aware of.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Ruby United said:
Netserk said:
Ruby United said:
Catwhoorg said:
The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.
No faction in history has had anywhere close to as high a suicide rate. Blacks in slavery, women without rights and even Jews in the Holocaust have a lower suicide rate. There is NO ways Transgenders are discriminated against more than Jews in the Holocaust where 6 million were massacred under the auspices of a genocidal maniac.
It's hard to argue, knowing this, that there Transgender isn't linked to a mental illness.
How, through logic, can you argue for the 40+% suicide rate.
Wow.

:surprised:

I'd advice you to be a little bit more humble when concluding that a particular high suicide rate means that transgenders are mentally ill.
I knew my opinion - based on facts - would not be popular.
That does not make it any less true.
Though I appreciate the fact that the conversation has remained civil.
Being transgender does not equate to being mentally ill.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/the-truth-about-transgend_b_8564834.html

Cant be easy to live trapped in the body of the opposite sex. I think it would drive a lot of people to suicide.
Just curious. What does this mean?
 

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