sky vs tinkoff

[karlboss]

So both leaders go out, one team ends up with 3 stages and the kom Jersey, the other no stage wins. How do people think things would have played out with both riders still in the race?

 

[maxmartin]

Is this another disguised VN v. AC v.CF thread?

 

[maxmartin]

So both leaders go out, one team ends up with 3 stages and the kom Jersey, the other no stage wins. How do people think things would have played out with both riders still in the race?

Is this another disguised VN v. AC v.CF thread?

 

[karlboss]

Is this another disguised VN v. AC v.CF thread?

It wasn't supposed to be. I have been a little surprised at Sky. Looking at the profiles after Porte fell away, I've been surprised they haven't been as active in breaks as TST, or Europcar for that matter. Really they have been quite haphazard in their approach to stage wins, hoping more than anything, where as TST have targeted stages and nailed them.
I was wondering are Sky just weak, or did they lose their self belief and their performances would have ben stronger if they still had their leader. What will this lead to next year?
If indeed TST are this much stronger than Sky, but Froome was stronger than Contador, would it have mattered?

 

[Publicus]

I get the sense that maybe Sky is a bit burned out and also overrated. As to the later point, I mean they really haven't had much of a tactic the last two years beyond, ride fast, smash favorites group and let Froome loose. They were built for that sole goal and when he came up short, they scrambled for a Plan B who promptly demonstrated himself to be exactly who we thought he was pre-Sky.

I'm pretty impressed that Tinkoff managed to salvage their Tour so-to-speak. They easily could have lost momentum and morale after Contador's untimely departure.

 

[Carols]

According to an Oleg interview TS were pretty depressed when Alberto departed. But Bjarne had a big team and staff meeting and all his team building skills came into play. Evidently he is very good at motivating people and the team was renewed, with new goals and raised spirits. The proof of his success is shown on the road in this Tour.

 

[Akuryo]

Quickstep lost their leader too and managed to get 2 stage wins and another set of podiums from Trentin and Renshaw. And Tony Martin is likely to take the TT. So it is not only Tinkov-Saxo who managed to get the results despite loosing the main guy.

 

[Netserk]

Quickstep lost their leader too and managed to get 2 stage wins and another set of podiums from Trentin and Renshaw. And Tony Martin is likely to take the TT. So it is not only Tinkov-Saxo who managed to get the results despite loosing the main guy.

The whole Tinkoff team was build around Contador with the sole goal of winning the Tour. OP-QS had Cav as number 1, but many had a free role on most stages (all stages Cav couldn't win basically).

 

[Carols]

Quickstep lost their leader too and managed to get 2 stage wins and another set of podiums from Trentin and Renshaw. And Tony Martin is likely to take the TT. So it is not only Tinkov-Saxo who managed to get the results despite loosing the main guy.

You're comparing focused on Winning the Tour vs. a few stage by Cav? really????

 

[Akuryo]

You're comparing focused on Winning the Tour vs. a few stage by Cav? really????

No, I compared the fact, that all these teams lost their most important rider. TS and OPQS got over it and won a few stages. Sky did not.

 

[kenk09]

It wasn't supposed to be. I have been a little surprised at Sky. Looking at the profiles after Porte fell away, I've been surprised they haven't been as active in breaks as TST, or Europcar for that matter. Really they have been quite haphazard in their approach to stage wins, hoping more than anything, where as TST have targeted stages and nailed them.
I was wondering are Sky just weak, or did they lose their self belief and their performances would have ben stronger if they still had their leader. What will this lead to next year?
If indeed TST are this much stronger than Sky, but Froome was stronger than Contador, would it have mattered?

That's not really true though.

Until stage 13 they had Richie Porte in 2nd place.
In the 5 stages since:
14 - Nieve and Thomas in the break. Majka too strong for them.
15 - sprint stage
16- Kiryienka in the winning move with Rogers. Finished 3rd,
17- Kiryienka the final rider in the break swept up by the favourites.
18 - Nieve, Lopez in break. Nieve the final rider in the break swept up by Nibali.

Other than staying in the favourites group and out climbing them I don't see what they could have done differently.

 

[InterestedSpectator]

It's pretty clear that Sky was a one-tactic entry this year with an intended winner being given strong support so that he would be able to be devastating where it mattered. With Porte's loss of form /health (must be the latter) it was clear that the others had no ability to step up for stage wins.

It looks like Tinkoff Saxo had better all-round ability to give that support, only the one to be supported lost his focus (according to v.d. Broeck who was just behind him when he went down).

 

[Carols]

And now Garmin comes through after losing Talansky!! Their focus was all for him, just as Sky was for Froome and Saxo was for Contador.

But Saxo and Sky had the biggest falls in spirit IMO, they were both gunning for a Win from the outset, not a top 5 or a few stages.

Still nice recovery by Saxo, OPQS and Garmin.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

I don't think it's really about tactics or even morale. Majka, Roche, Rogers are stronger than Porte, Nieve, Kiryienka at least in their current form. I mean when you have the two strongest guys in a large break on a mountain stage, winning is more expected than surprising.

 

[Carols]

I don't think it's really about tactics or even morale. Majka, Roche, Rogers are stronger than Porte, Nieve, Kiryienka at least in their current form. I mean when you have the two strongest guys in a large break on a mountain stage, winning is more expected than surprising.

If their morale hadn't been picked up off the floor, they never would have been in the breaks you know.....

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

If their morale hadn't been picked up off the floor, they never would have been in the breaks you know.....

Well sure, they could have rolled up in a ball and sulked. But they are professionals. It should be expected that they will give some other plans a try. Same with Sky - they did try to put their strongest guys in the obvious breaks, but their strongest just aren't as strong.

Contador, whatever his own form turned out to be, was going to have a savagely strong team. Froome was merely going to have a decentish one. At best, when you remember it turned out that Porte has no form.

 

[djpbaltimore]

If their morale hadn't been picked up off the floor, they never would have been in the breaks you know.....

If Contador hadn't hit the tarmac, they most likely never would've been given the opportunity to be in the breaks either.

I'm sure the mood was low right after the withdrawal, but these are professionals who can see that one door closing means more opportunities to showcase their own abilities. I don't think Sky has performed poorly due to low morale, but rather to poor form. Like Zinoviev Letter just stated, it it more about strength than morale IMO.

 

[xanadu]

That's not really true though.

Until stage 13 they had Richie Porte in 2nd place.
In the 5 stages since:
14 - Nieve and Thomas in the break. Majka too strong for them.
15 - sprint stage
16- Kiryienka in the winning move with Rogers. Finished 3rd,
17- Kiryienka the final rider in the break swept up by the favourites.
18 - Nieve, Lopez in break. Nieve the final rider in the break swept up by Nibali.

Other than staying in the favourites group and out climbing them I don't see what they could have done differently.

The skybots did everything right exceot win, they played their cards well but so too did Saxo-Tinkoff grabbing 3 stage wins and the polka dots but then again Majika and Rodgers are class acts.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

That's not really true though.

Until stage 13 they had Richie Porte in 2nd place.
In the 5 stages since:
14 - Nieve and Thomas in the break. Majka too strong for them.
15 - sprint stage
16- Kiryienka in the winning move with Rogers. Finished 3rd,
17- Kiryienka the final rider in the break swept up by the favourites.
18 - Nieve, Lopez in break. Nieve the final rider in the break swept up by Nibali.

Other than staying in the favourites group and out climbing them I don't see what they could have done differently.

Needs to be pointed out again. Only narrowly weaker than Saxo.

Team strength his hard to factor into the overall individual battle

The way I see it, Froome needs his team less than AC needs his to dominate, but Froome needs his team more in a crisis than AC needs his team, if that makes sense. I think the final Dauphine stage illustrates the 'crisis' situation, as AC managed himself way better than Froome did his self. On the other side, I think that once/if Froome got away from the favorites, he would have build up more time than AC would have.

That said, given this years course, there were many more opportunities for chaos: many more situations where AC could outfox Sky without having to employ his team's muscle.

 

[thehog]

The skybots did everything right exceot win, they played their cards well but so too did Saxo-Tinkoff grabbing 3 stage wins and the polka dots but then again Majika and Rodgers are class acts.

Truth be told Sky's squad was poor last year outside or Porte/Froome. Froome powerhouse win covered over the cracks of a very weak team.

This year sans Dawg and Porte riding at his true talent level you realise the Sky team are underdone. Considering all those marginal gains they have they'd be even worse.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Needs to be pointed out again. Only narrowly weaker than Saxo.

I really strongly disagree with that. Sky made similar tactical decisions to TS, as the post you were responding to points out. They failed not because they were sulking or demoralised or didn't try anything, nor because of luck. TS got three stages and a jersey doing much the same think as Sky because they were considerably stronger, particularly when comparing the form of the three notionally strongest riders on each team after the loss of their leaders.

Contador would have had a considerably stronger team than Froome. But I do actually agree with you that it's very unclear how much difference that would make in practice if super-Froone showed up like last year.

 

[MatParker117]

I really strongly disagree with that. Sky made similar tactical decisions to TS, as the post you were responding to points out. They failed not because they were sulking or demoralised or didn't try anything, nor because of luck. TS got three stages and a jersey doing much the same think as Sky because they were considerably stronger, particularly when comparing the form of the three notionally strongest riders on each team after the loss of their leaders.

Contador would have had a considerably stronger team than Froome. But I do actually agree with you that it's very unclear how much difference that would make in practice if super-Froone showed up like last year.

Rumours about Pinot and Konig heading to Sky nice plans B & C if it happens.